POTM Recommendation discussion

[TanksNStuff]

Congrats Sandee. That was a cool pic, but I must admit I didn't vote for it due to the "slightly enhanced" part in the description. If the description didn't mention it was enhanced, I would have voted for it myself. :applause:

While that is not against the rules of the contest, I think "enhancement" should be prohibited by the rules. I think that just leaves the door open to people editing the photos to make them better than what they really are. I'M NOT SAYING SANDEE DID THIS! I'm just saying that software should not be involved since it makes it possible to alter the actual image. If someone really wanted to, they could make an ordinary looking coral have psychedelic colors or something and everyone would drool over it. I have no problems with resizing (1:1 ratio) or cropping or something to focus on a particular section of a photo.

I did not submit any entries this month so I have no axe to grind or anything. In fact, I think the "slight enhancement" done with Sandee's pic was probably completely harmless and irrelevant. For all I know, her iPhone probably didn't give her an option not to use it, lol. I just decided to vote for another photo just on this principle.

Sandee, I hope you don't take this personally. I'm happy that you won and I really did like the pic. I just felt the need to mention this to see what others feel about it.

[malulu]

- the slightly enhancement could be just brighten up...etc.
- yes, the enhancement could be lead to big can of worms later on...
- should we split up this topic to other thread?

Sandee, Congrats again for the great catch (of fish and the picture moment!)
:encouragement:

[TanksNStuff]

David, if you want to split my post into another thread, I'd be ok with that. (Just leave the "Congrats" part here please!)

I don't want my post (or any replies to it) to muddy up Sandee's Congrat's thread.

[malulu]

i don't know how...
tried... failed...
can you start a new thread instead?
thx

[Sandee]

Member Comment Above: << That was a cool pic, but I must admit I didn't vote for it due to the "slightly enhanced" part in the description. If the description didn't mention it was enhanced, I would have voted for it myself >>

POTM Instructions: << Submit your photo, along with a brief description, by emailing them to Photos@njreefers.org (Photos@njreefers.org). Please put POTM - USERNAME in the subject. The description will be used on the home page. It should include any special technique used, something about the subject of the photo, the camera/lense used, what post production work, if any was done (cropping, color correction, sharpening, layering ....), and anything anectdotal that you'd like to tell. >>

Wow, I lost a vote for trying to be honest and following the directions; I indicated what camera I used, post production work aka ‘slightly enhanced’. Actually didn’t want to use the term ‘color correction’ as not to suggested I *colored* anything (like changing an ordinary looking coral to one with psychedelic colors, for example).

Member Comment Above: << I think the "slight enhancement" done with Sandee's pic was probably completely harmless and irrelevant. For all I know, her iPhone probably didn't give her an option not to use it, lol. I just decided to vote for another photo just on this principle >>

“completely harmless and irrelevant” – thanks, I think (?). As a matter of fact, yeah / sorta - the iPhone does a pretty fantastic job as is, and the native iPhone app does auto-enhance (ie, improve lighting, corrects for florescent lights maybe and removes red eye, etc.). If I had an even better camera, say a Hasselblad H4D (60 megapixels), based on the subject matter and conditions – the raw image may be far superior to anyone’s PhotoShop’ed submission – and since, according to the (possibly new) rules, the guy who spent $60K on a camera would win (un-enhanced). And that’s where I draw the line … no image altered, PhotoShop’ed photos …

Member Comment Above: << Sandee, I hope you don't take this personally. >>

I am. We’re all adults here, we all have an opinion – I get it. It’s just a POTM thing, vote for what you like, on to the next thing. No tone, just sayin’ …

BTW, I just took this picture of ChubbyBunny (image on the left - he’s sad, you can tell from this raw image, no enhancement at all, auto-settings off). His plastic log (his house) was cleaner then – bit more algae on it tonight. It’s the same fish, same crushed coral, different tank, different lights (pre and post move). The one on the right, is the exact picture I submitted to POTM, directly from my iPhone (image 398). The iPhone just bumps up the contrast a bit, whites are whiter … he’s a good fish either way …

2559

[TanksNStuff]

I just wanted to formally apologize to Sandee for my original post here. Although I feel there should be a discussion on using / allowing software to enhance photo submissions, I did not mean to suggest that she had done anything wrong with her pics while bringing that up here. It was merely the possibility of manipulating a pic with software that I was concerned about and wanted to discuss.

I don't believe she did anything wrong whatsoever and she clearly followed the instructions for submitting an entry by describing it the way she did. Credit should have been given for being honest and including the enhancing part in the description too... something I meant to include in my original post but forgot.

In hind sight, I should have just said my congratz and brought up my topic in another thread. :culpability:

[Tazmaniancowboy]

Thread split...Post here for discussion

[9supratt4]

George....although I agree with you....stopping people from enhancing photos is going to be near impossible. There is no way to know if someone enhanced a photo short of them telling someone.

I submitted a picture this month and last month....I'm sure you can figure out which ones were mine :rolleyes:. I guess I can say that I enhanced my pictures because if I didn't the pictures would show a ton of particulate in the water, due to the distance I was from the subjects.

Again, it will be close to impossible to figure out who did and who didn't enhance their photos.

[Tazmaniancowboy]

Congrats Sandee. That was a cool pic, but I must admit I didn't vote for it due to the "slightly enhanced" part in the description. If the description didn't mention it was enhanced, I would have voted for it myself. :applause:

While that is not against the rules of the contest, I think "enhancement" should be prohibited by the rules.
I agree with you George and did the same as far as the vote. Enhancement can be a real problem and is not fair, However it is my understanding that the phone app automatically enhanced it. I did not know this when voting. I am against someone taking a pic and then enhancing it with an additional program to do so. Everybody will have different views on this. This is the first month that comments were posted with the Poll pictures which is something I am also against. I personally feel that the picture should be voted "for the picture" and then find out the details after it wins. Posting comments sways a vote either for or against for one particular reason or another.

I don't think much should be done to rules, I would just hope that people be honest and keep it fair. I have said it before and I will say it again, in my opinion a phone cam can catch just the right picture as a million dollar professional camera. It is in the eye of the photographer and the taste of the voter. Can a phone cam pic be as clear and vivid as a professional camera, NO, But to me this contest is about the focal point, humor, surroundings, etc.

Even with my above opinions, I would hate to turn this into a critical contest, we are a reef club, not a camera club and it is supposed to be fun!

[malulu]

since we are on the POTM rules topics, i would like:

- to allow submitter to have a max of 75 chars to post along with the voting pic ( the 75 is the max chars that i can fit in the configuration text box)

[malulu]

i see that Don beat me to it for the replied... and coincidentally we are the the same subject but in different side of the fence. :p

I think now a day, if someone have a high end macro len camera would get a better chance to win - so i would like to introduced the comments along the photos, to swing the vote on the story behind it...

to steal the quote from above we are not camera club, we are a reef club, but my view is whom got the best story with a picture to show the fun should win!
:grin:

[9supratt4]

I agree with Taz....the descriptions and commentary of the pictures should not be posted.

[TanksNStuff]

Thanks for splitting this off and cleaning up the other thread Taz!

Yea, it is a touchy subject and I agree that it's almost impossible to tell whether a pic was altered via software. We will have to rely on the honor system, but at least if we let it be known that it's not fair... maybe some will refrain from doing it.

I didn't know at the time of voting that the phone app automatically enhances the pic either. I suppose if you are using an iPhone, you really don't have a choice. But at the same time, it's not exactly the same as you would be able to do in photoshop for instance.

Don, I think I agree that no descriptions should be posted with the pics either. Or at least nothing related to the camera or equipment. I guess it couldn't hurt to label what type of critter is in the pic, or the situation of when it was taken (something getting eaten by something, etc.) But this time around, the descriptions did sway my vote and apparently did for others too.

I also agree that the voting should be about the fun factor and not necessarily the quality of the pic.

Anyway, good to have the discussion going anyway.

[adesimone1]

Hey that isn't fair I entered my photo I was runner up. We never lose never never never. Poor Jr finally came out of
hiding and I only got six votes. Wrong just wrong I never win anything. Lol

CONGRATS Sandee on your winning pic.

[Sandee]

You know, fishcam runs on a bunch of cheap webcams -- not a "camera" as we're defining it here. Pictures are still pretty good!

http://img.tapatalk.com/a6898b8d-2b8d-616c.jpg http://img.tapatalk.com/a6898b8d-2bbd-8506.jpg


Sandee | Sent from my iPhone!

[Nickjr000]

I agree with Taz....the descriptions and commentary of the pictures should not be posted.

+1, just an image cause after all thats what your voting on. Shouldnt b any words or creative techniques to sway anyone. Maybe leave that stuff out for voting and post it only if that pic wins.

BTW congrats SANDEE!

[Sandee]

I agree, no words just the photo ... and on the honor system. Enhanced ok, no PhotoShop or image manipulation.


Sandee | Sent from my iPad

[AJ1080]

Im all for the photo without any enhancements or manipulations. Fixing an underexposed, overexposed, out of focus, wrong aperture, etc. automatically with a computer program takes away from those pictures that have not been altered. In reality though, it can't be enforced.

If we are worried about the someone with expensive equipment winning all the time then why not put a limit on how many times someone can win, whether it be once a quarter or once a year?

Just my thoughts on it and not to take anything away from Sandee.

[malulu]

- limiting the winning times would not help much, there are only 12 months in a year, even we say once a year, the top 12 people with good equipment is most likely to win, and we have few hundred members.

- two of the main issues ( In my own opinions ) are (1) the normal skill set members don't like to submit as they think their pics are not good enough quality as the pro. (2) the pro won' submit as they would like to save some chances for others to win. HENCE we end up with very few POTM submission, normally we only got 1 or 2 pics few days before the deadline, and we need to *hint* people as very good change to win, then they will submission few more the day of the deadline.

- i really prefer the side-liner to explain what is in that pic, the story behind it would make a pic worth while and warm/touch our heart.

- may be we can open up one more vote as BEST PIC FOR NJRC CALENDAR, and this voting will have no gift card reward, BUT, instead, we can made an annually calendar out of them, just to show off their pride. we can also required the photo have to be high resolution images, as this is one of the problem we are currently facing which can not use all the POTM to make calendar.

[asonitez]

I loved all the pics. My own submissions for 1 or 2 votes and i was happy ppl thought the were pretty. Congrats Sandee! well played!
As for enhancing. I am a camera Noob. But I read this ken rockwell website found out about aperature/ white balance using pvc pipe to create a white balance profile for pictures and all of a sudden in the last few days got trigger happy taking pictures. heck i subscribe to nat-geo for the pics alone! Most of those pics hold true though . Taken Raw and then worked over in Photoshop to reflect what I was actually seeing with my eye. Since my PC was right next to by tank I was able to take picture and then adjust white balance until it matched what I saw with my eyes. I like taking pictures under actinics so my colors are always psychadelic! lol

[malulu]

are we going to come to some agreement soon? or a vote something?

I would like to know how to proceed with the next POTM, as the time is almost here... need the rules FIRM before accepting new pics.
thx

[TanksNStuff]

I was wondering the same thing Dave.

Since this topic didn't get a whole lot of interest, it doesn't seem like many people care what happens either way. Also, out of all those that did comment, it seems the majority agree that software "enhancing" is not really fair... but there really isn't any way to enforce or prove whether someone actually used software to manipulate a photo.

Therefore, I don't think we can do anything more than suggesting to keep it fair and not use any.

The other topic brought up was whether descriptions should be included in the voting or not. That seemed to have mixed results with people on both sides of the fence. Maybe we should vote on that and let the members choose that decision?

[hurtback]

I've been quiet for awhile now, very busy at work and there were some other issues that made me stay away from the club. But, I do read the posts. Photography is my job, I do it every single day and I think there's nothing wrong with enhancing images. Sharpening them, making it lighter or darker, brightening the colors,etc is all part of the digital age. When a wedding photographer photographs a wedding each and every image is looked at and somehow enhanced, every single image. There is no way someone can capture an image and have it look 100% correct !!!
Now, photo shopping 2 fish together, taken in 2 different tanks and made to look like they are both in the same tank I don’t think would be accepted.
If NJRC wants images for a calendar then the images will need to be of higher quality, and enhanced.
The rules for POTM might need to be looked at and changed, but I think a few more things need to be ironed out.
Another thought, at the monthly meetings might it be possible to look into having someone come in to go over ' Basic Photography '.
I had wanted to suggest these things awhile back, even volunteering to teach the photography, but like I said there were some issues with the club that I needed to step away from.
I just think to not allow basic enhancement of an image will only result in people slowly ignoring the POTM because they will think there image doesn’t look good without enhancing it to make it look better
steve

[Sandee]

Yeah - what he said! Steve (Hurtback), nicely stated ... tnx!

[TanksNStuff]

I think I agree with Steve (hurtback) also. White balance, sharpening, red-eye reduction, etc. are all minor enhancements that only make the photo more like the actual image that was taken. I don't think anyone has an issue with those types of enhancements at all.

Using Photoshop or similar programs to cut/paste, change colors completely, add textures, stretch or reshape things in the photo after it's taken.... those are the enhancements that should not be allowed. But again, how do you enforce a rule against such alterations? Unless it's blatently obvious, it would be very difficult to tell. More importantly, how does someone prove they didn't do it? If you make it a rule and someone claims a photo was in violation... how does the submitter prove him/herself that it wasn't done?

As to your offer/idea to have photo lessons given at meetings... I love that idea! I'm sure there would be plenty of interest from both experts and novice/beginners who would like to either learn or showoff what they know. :biggrin:

I'll be sure to bring that up at February's meeting as a suggestion. I might put your name out there for the idea though, so hope you don't mind.

[hurtback]

whats the first thing you say when you look at an image in a magazine --usually its wow, thats awesome, or something along those lines..
you dont say, hey, that image was enhanced or photoshopped--
its the image thats important, not whether or not something was done to it..
we all know what the pages of playboy look like---each and every image in magazines has some type of enhancement done to it--do we look at that image differently knowing that that model doesnt REALLY look that GOOD IN REAL LIFE ??? No, so why is it different when its an image of a fish, crab , coral or whatever...
its the subject, color,clarity etc that makes us say' wow' not the enhancements done to the image..if the enhancements make the image better--then great..
and should'nt NJRC want to have that 'WOW' image on its home page ???
there should be a required image size and subject matter ( for calendar issue ) these should be the 2 basic things needed for an image--enhancements should'nt make a difference---

steve

[malulu]

what is the real goal for POTM ?
- do we want the most amazing pics?
- or, we want some fun and possible touching pics?

the former is meant for pros with possible good equipment and good knowledge of photo editing/enhancing skill set.
the later is for almost anyone with even a point and shoot "phone".

once we identify which way we wanted, we can be proceed easily...

I would like to be able to use use some winning pics to make annually calendar if possible. ( can we setup another poll which have no giftcard award to lower the over head of the club expense? but only accept high quality images, if one particularly month did not have anyone to submit, we will use previously month's second winner's image for the year calendar...etc.)

we can still keep the POTM but with side liner to swing the poll if it could.

thx
-david

-BTW:
Steve, welcome back!!

[TanksNStuff]

whats the first thing you say when you look at an image in a magazine --usually its wow, thats awesome, or something along those lines..
you dont say, hey, that image was enhanced or photoshopped--
its the image thats important, not whether or not something was done to it..
we all know what the pages of playboy look like---each and every image in magazines has some type of enhancement done to it--do we look at that image differently knowing that that model doesnt REALLY look that GOOD IN REAL LIFE ??? No, so why is it different when its an image of a fish, crab , coral or whatever...
its the subject, color,clarity etc that makes us say' wow' not the enhancements done to the image..if the enhancements make the image better--then great..
and should'nt NJRC want to have that 'WOW' image on its home page ???
there should be a required image size and subject matter ( for calendar issue ) these should be the 2 basic things needed for an image--enhancements should'nt make a difference---

steve

Well, when I see a pic like this:

http://a57.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/Scitech/660/371/cyclops-shark-111017.jpg

The first thing I think is... That's PHOTOSHOPPED!! I don't think, Wow, that's a great pic!

We've never had anything so absurd as a photo submission before, but an image as bizarre as that could come along at some point and then we have someone arguing that it's not a real photo.

Actually, Sandee reminded me that she had an issue at one time when she submitted her "Mr. Smiles"

(This isn't her actual submission, but she posted it later from her webcam)
http://img.tapatalk.com/ad36bdf1-3a44-88f3.jpg

That starfish really does have patterns on it that make it look like a smiley face. She said she had that one removed from the contest because it was "too recognizable." I think some people didn't think it was real but as you can see this photo was from a live fish cam (and I've seen it myself live in the fish cam and the markings moved along with the star fish) so it is indeed real. But controversy can easily pop up when anything is strange or there is any doubt whether it's real or not.

Yes, magazines and such do alter their images and perhaps even "fix" flaws like scars or whatever. That's acceptable in that business because people don't care if it's real or not... they just want to see something beautiful. But this isn't a magazine or a business trying to sell something. It's a friendly contest between members to find a favorite candid hobby-related photo. It wouldn't be fair to take 2 pictures of 2 different fish, then cut/paste parts of one onto the other to make it look like 1 new / strange fish... would it? I'd give the person credit for being creative and talented with the software program, but I wouldn't want them to win the contest with a submission like that!

Again, it's practically impossible to detmine whether a photo was altered significantly or not... so this is sort of a moot point.

[malulu]

Last time, the Smiling Star fish got removed - was due to it had been posted in this forum before, and it is NOT due to "too recognizable."

since we are on this topic, the not revealing original submitter rule, i really don't think it is matter we know whom submitted it or not, but some would think otherwise... that is another matter we may need to address.

[Nickjr000]

I think people r wrong thinking if someone has a dslr they r automatically in the money. Point n shoots can take a great pic too. 1 month I recieved a majority of votes for potm with an iphone pic. I do have a dslr now. But ive gotten great pics in the past with a 220$ cannon elph. Actually I won 1 or 2 potm's with that point n shoot, None with the dslr yet.

I would vote to display only the pic , no words. And allow minor enhancements, sharpening, balance etc. After winner is chosen text will b shown about what they used if they even include it in the submission

[malulu]

- what is wrong with words?

- not sure if we have a way to shows all original submission after the poll, after all, we may wanted to know how/what the 2nd, 3rd place's did what with the pics...

[malulu]

it seems that:
- we don't have enough people to chime in for more ideas?
- we don't have enough time to finalized the finding
- we don't have enough time to get them to vote

hence this Feb POTM will as as last one no new rules yet.
please continue to shout with more ideas...!

thx

[9supratt4]

David....what needs to be done in order to get new rules put in place?? A lot of people made suggestions.....

[malulu]

we need to agreed on the suggestions...
may be some time next week, i will compile them, and then put in a vote.
thx

[howze01]

I think that just by using our eyes and common sense we can see overly shopped pics. When I've submitted, I pretty much always crop and adjust exposure in Picnic. I don't see any reason to ban stuff like that.

I also say just the picture. It's not an essay contest, it's a picture contest and I think the photo should win on it's own merits. I think there's also the issue of anonimity too. With too many details people can figure out who's pic it is.

Just my .02

[thirty5]

I think that we are splitting hairs here. When I shoot I use a custom white balance, but the camera does all the work. Does that mean that it enhanced??? No it does not. As most people know the blues will throw off the colors and you need to adjust the picture to get the true colors out. I would hope that people may make a modification to make the picture look like real life and not try to make it better.

I personally want people to see pictures of my tank as if they were standing in front of it.

So if a person fixed white balance or even just brightens it up a bit for exposure then I don't think that it is a big deal. A pic taken with a cheaper point and shoot may not be able to take the same pic as a high end dslr.

[hurtback]

-BTW:
Steve, welcome back!!

thanks david...

why not just run the Feb POTM for now till more ideas/rules are ironed out
nothing can really be done or changed without permission from the BOD...
steve

[malulu]

any more comments and suggestions??

i will sum up the suggestions (this coming weekend) and will present to the board, for the "features" that are feasible to do, we will put up a poll to decide which way it will go.

thx
-david

[malulu]

Hi,

I am very sorry to say that I did not get a chance to work on the suggestions related tasks, hence this month's (March 2012) POTM will be using the old rules PLUS a new restriction to only accept up to TWO images for each member's submission.

I will get to the suggestion related tasks some time next week.

Apology for the delayed.

Best Regards,
-David

[Sandee]

Tnx very much for continuing to facilitate the process, contest and rules! I think the 2 pix limit is a good idea ...

Sandee