Apollo LED Issue

[redfishbluefish]

This issue with the Apollo light was without question a heat transfer problem. What also could have contributed to the LED failure was the quality of the blue LEDs.


The white and red LEDs survived unscathed. All the blues on either circuit were fried.


The LEDs were solder/attached to the flat aluminum plate. There was thermal grease used between the LED and aluminum plate.... a very small amount. This aluminum plate was then attached to two finned aluminum heat exchangers on the top side. Between these pieces of aluminum was thermal grease as well, but was not continuous. Sorry it's out of focus, but you can still see the white thermal grease on the back side of one of the finned cooling blocks....and there are "open" spots.







Now what also rips my shorts is that, other than the fans themself and the moonlight driver, nothing has a label or identification marking on them......specifically, the two main LED drivers, and the small driver for the three fans.....nothing to identify how many volts and/or output amperage. This has made finding a replacement fan much more difficult. If I knew the output amperage I could potentially get a better fan (more flow), because, for the most part, increase power consumption means increased amount of air flow (CFM). So right now, not knowing the information about the power supply, I'm stuck picking a 0.1A fan. I'd prefer more, but can't take the chance.

 

[saltkreep88]

http://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...fans-on-chinese-blackbox-leds&h=kAQHXlkHy&s=1 this might help some

 

[Edwardw771]

http://reefhobbyist.tumblr.com/post/112209001293/changing-fans-on-chinese-blackbox-leds

 

[saltkreep88]

http://reefhobbyist.tumblr.com/post/112209001293/changing-fans-on-chinese-blackbox-leds

Thanks

 

[redfishbluefish]

Thanks guys for the link to the fan......0.05A.....that's unbelievable.


Here is where my head is at right now.....do I spend the money to fix this three year old light fixture or do I put it towards a new light. I'm not sure if the cause of the problem is cured, so fixing what is broken might just happen again. Here is an estimate of expenses:


Fan $8 - $12
LEDs $20
Thermal Grease $10 - $15
Extraneous materials $3 - $5


So the the total is $41 to $52

 

[ecam]

Thanks guys for the link to the fan......0.05A.....that's unbelievable.


Here is where my head is at right now.....do I spend the money to fix this three year old light fixture or do I put it towards a new light. I'm not sure if the cause of the problem is cured, so fixing what is broken might just happen again. Here is an estimate of expenses:


Fan $8 - $12
LEDs $20
Thermal Grease $10 - $15
Extraneous materials $3 - $5


So the the total is $41 to $52

Plus the labor your going to put in to it. I say put it toward a new light. Like you mentioned before, unless you upgrade the fan (which you cant since you dont know the required amp) you run the danger of having it happen again

 

[saltkreep88]

I highly recommend reef breeders if you are trying to stay with budget minded lights.

 

[JRWOHLER]

I checked mine when I got home finally and thankfully mine are not crispy. I don't know if it is due to a change they made or the time I have had them. I wonder if it was a particular batch of LEDs that they used even?

 

[redfishbluefish]

I checked mine when I got home finally and thankfully mine are not crispy. I don't know if it is due to a change they made or the time I have had them. I wonder if it was a particular batch of LEDs that they used even?

Realize I have old Apollos with the steel case (they eventually changed to aluminum) and no adjustment capability (they eventually included pots...and then control-ability with controllers, such as Apex.) So my lights are either full ON 100%, or totally OFF. If you have adjustability you can turn them down where they would be running cooler. Also the length of time you run them could impact the heat factor.

There is certainly enough aluminum cooling capacity on these.....the exact same as my ReefBreeder....a large flat aluminum plate attached to two smaller finned aluminum plates. The one thing I'm going to do that is potentially different is to use "the best" thermal compound. It's more expensive, but I want the heat pulled away from these LEDs. I've got a hunch this could have been part of the reason for so many bulb failures....a lower quality thermal compound that was not sufficiently applied to both the LEDs and between the aluminum heat sinks.

 

[JRWOHLER]

Gotcha. Well I guess if you decide to fix them you do have the ability to put in whatever variety of lights you want so that is a positive.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Well I was about ready to pull the trigger and do the repair....and then I saw THIS. Another Apollo user with fried LEDs. Granted, he had fan issues. So now I'm back up in the air. I'm not sure what to do.......more mulling I guess.

 

[Ligershark]

Well I was about ready to pull the trigger and do the repair....and then I saw THIS. Another Apollo user with fried LEDs. Granted, he had fan issues. So now I'm back up in the air. I'm not sure what to do.......more mulling I guess.

If you decide to go the diy route I wouldn't mind helping you. I run my blues at 700ma and uv and moonlight at 350ma and use a storm x to turn up the controller percentage. An led run at 700ma and 100% will run cooler and last longer than an led run at 1000ma and 50%. Btw rapidled and ledgroupbuy only recommend a very small amount of thermal grease for each led. I put maybe half a dime size amount on each led.

 

[redfishbluefish]

If you decide to go the diy route I wouldn't mind helping you. I run my blues at 700ma and uv and moonlight at 350ma and use a storm x to turn up the controller percentage. An led run at 700ma and 100% will run cooler and last longer than an led run at 1000ma and 50%. Btw rapidled and ledgroupbuy only recommend a very small amount of thermal grease for each led. I put maybe half a dime size amount on each led.

Thank you for your kind offer. However, I have a slave-boy....I mean future son-in-law....who is a student at Stevens Institute striving for a degree in Electrical Mumbo Jumbo. He has offered to do everything on this fix. With his schedule, it most likely will be an upcoming weekend and you are more than welcome to attend the festivities. Again, if I proceed....and as of right now there is greater likelyhood....I'll let everyone know.....and all are welcome.


Now here's the latest information that has caused for additional thought in proceeding with this fix. I might have found the cause of the failure of my Apollo lights. THIS link would suggest that they used sub-par thermal compound, comprimising heat transfer. It certainly makes sense. The TaoTronics fixture I'm now using in place of the Apollo also has 55 LEDs running at 2 watts and the fans aren't even on when blues only are on. The fans in this unit only come on when the whites come on. The Apollo fans are ON with either or white or blue lights on (i.e., fans are always on if any lights are ON). Without question it is a heat problem and I've got to believe it's their thermal compound they used.


Here is the one pertinent quote from the above link, "Replace all the white crap they put on the back of the LED's with decent thermal paste like Arctic Silver....."


The stuff I've removed from the back of the LED's was white and as mentioned, the thermal compound (also white) between the finned aluminum heat sink and aluminum plate was not continuous. I'm really thinking this is the problem.

 

[redfishbluefish]

The trigger has been pulled.....I've order the stuff needed to fix this fixture. Actual costs (tax not included)


50 Blue Leds - $19.99
Noctua NT-H1 Thermal Compound - $6.99
Arctic Silver 5 (2 pack) - $10.47


So the materials costs (minus tax) to fix the fixture comes to $37.45....sounds reasonable...right? Note that I still need to pick a fan....worst case, Best Buy has 0.1 A fans for $6.99.


Now the miscellaneous costs got a bit higher than expected, considering the purchase of a new soldering iron. I figure I deserved it because the Smithsonian might be interested in my current iron (Yes, this is my soldering iron):







Great for soldering 12 guage wire, but not so good with micro-electronics....which they didn't have when this was purchased. Also the reason I needed to buy solder....the one pound spool I have is very thick...too thick for microelectronics. So here's what I purchased:


Aoyou Soldering Iron $29.99
Solder Sucker $5.50
60/40 rosin 0.032 solder (1.8 oz) $8.75


So my miscellaneous costs come to $44.24 (I predicted $3-$5...a little off )




All ordered with Amazon Prime, so should all be here by midweek.

 

[Zippy69]

Why both of these? Noctua NT-H1 Thermal Compound - $6.99
Arctic Silver 5 (2 pack) - $10.47

 

[redfishbluefish]

Why both of these? Noctua NT-H1 Thermal Compound - $6.99
Arctic Silver 5 (2 pack) - $10.47

The Arctic Silver is a pretty good thermal conductor, but it also is an electrical conductor....it actually contains silver. This will be used between the finned aluminum and the flat plate aluminum. So with the LEDs, the electrical connections are very close to where the contact is made with the plate aluminum for cooling. The concern is that if electrically conductive compound contacts the terminals it could short out. The Noctua compound does not conduct electricity and will be used on the LEDs. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Zippy69]

Crystal clear now. Thanks for the input.

 

[Hawkeye]

the slave boy comment made me laugh out loud. Thanks for sharing all this Paul and good luck.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Slave boy is in because of Easter break, and I'm cracking the whip.

While I await the arrival of the new blue LED beads from China, the 36 fried-to-a-crisp LEDs were removed from the board. Here's what a pile of burnt LEDs looks like:







And here's the board with the thermal compound removed by using isopropyl alcohol.







So now I'm just sitting here twiddling my thumbs while I wait for the new LED beads to arrive. Amazon now says they will be here between April 16 and May 4.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Time for an update......the LED beads arrived:






Installing the new LED's was cake. Used the Noctua NT-H1 thermal compound between the LED and the flat aluminum plate. However, having sufficient thermal compound for between the finned aluminum and flat plate became an issue. I originally purchased two syringes of Arctic Silver 5 (3.5 g per syringe), thinking that I could use one on this fixture and the other on the second fixture, that also needed some new LED's. Well that wasn't the case. To review, the original thermal paste was extremely poorly applied. Here is one finned plate removed and you can see that maybe, at best, 20 percent of the plate is in thermal contact with the flat plate. THAT STINKS!







This is a major problem. If you own an Apollo fixture I'd highly recommend that you open it up, pull off the finned plates, clean off the original thermal compound and replace it with a new thermal compound that completely contacts the flat plate. (And I wouldn't use Arctic Silver 5.....you'll find out why shortly).


So the two Arctic Silver 5 syringes weren't even enough to partically cover the one fixture. So I ordered two more larger syringes (12 g per syringe), for a little under $30.....so now, just for the finned aluminum, I've spent about $40 for thermal compound! Again, now I thought enought for the two fixtures......NOT! So now this quantity of Arctic Silver 5 was enough for the one fixture with a little left over. TOO EXPENSIVE. So I've now found that Arctic Silver makes a compound that does not contain silver, for a fraction of the cost.....and has very similar thermal properties. DOH! Arctic Silver Ceramique 2 is fraction of the cost. So for the other fixture I need to repair, I've ordered enough to do the finned aluminum on that fixture.....for about $7. Kick me!


In addition, the one fan that wasn't working was replaced with a fan from Best Buy (the Insignia) for $7.






The fixture was returned to the tank and is looking fantastic! The other Apollo was now removed to be inspected. More to come.