Should I get more Live Rock to lower NO3?

[ageek2000]

I have a 12 Gallon Eclipse Saltwater Kit as seen in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anLMEZ3jKIU&feature=channel_page

I have 14 Lb. of Live Rock. I'm having trouble keeping my nitrates down. I do a 30% water change every week or so; but my nitrates still hover in the 80 range. Yes -- I check the nitrates in the new water before adding it; they are always at 0. I am only feeding my fish every other day now (two Seabae Clowns). I added a bag of Seachem De*nitrate Stones in the filter chamber.

Testing with Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Saltwater Master Test Kit (Marine) AND the Reef Master Test Kit.

I'm wondering if more live rock will keep things under control? Maybe I should go 20 -- 24 lbs?

Thanks for your help!

Jim

 

[onefish2fish]

how old is the tank? what is your flow like?

i see you say "filter" do you have a HOB? filter media?

sponges, pads, filters, bio balls and all the like trap debris and detritus causing an increase in excess nutrients.

 

[ageek2000]

Hey onefish.

The tank has been running since Christmas.

Well the Eclipse Saltwater Kit comes with the Biowheel, filter, and plastic housing. I added a bag of Seachem De*nitrate Stones in the filter chamber -- on top of the filter cartridge.

The water flow seems pretty good.

Onefish -- we used to have a cleaner shrimp, but it died. However, we never found the remains, and I moved all the live rocks around and vacuumed up the coral. I'm wondering if he's in there decomposing or something, and that's adding to the high nitrate levels. No clue where he is, though -- Maybe inside the filter housing some place (?).

Do you think I should get rid of the filter cartridge or something?

What do you think, one fish? Thanks for your time!

Jim

 

[onefish2fish]

get rid of the bio wheel for sure. it also sounds like you have crushed coral as a substrate? both mechanical and this kind of substrate trap debris causing un-wanted spikes in nutrients.
a saltwater tanks filtration is shouldnt be anymore then live rock, good flow, water changes and a deep sand bed (or very shallow or no sand, anything in between traps debris) nothing more should be needed. ( and if the tank was any bigger i would say a quality protein skimmer, carbon/phosban reactors, a sump/refugium with chaeto algae)
im not familiar with denitrate stones. water changes would be your best bet. what kind of water are you using? salt?

your cleaner shrimp most likely died of high nitrates and was cleaned up by your cleanup crew.

 

[ageek2000]

Hey. I'm reluctant to get rid of the Biowheel 'cause . . . well . . . it came with the kit. It's gotta do something good, right? But, if I understand you correctly, the Biowheel and filtration system that I have is taking some good stuff out of the tank? I thought the good bacteria grow on the Biowheel -- that's what it's for (?).

Well I put the Crushed Coral in 'cause that's what the shop recommended. Yes -- the shop is a forum sponsor. . .

I have a little protein skimmer running in the tank. It's a Berlin Airlift 60 Protein Skimmer by Red Sea. I also have an AquaClear Powerhead 20.

I am doing the water changes with filtered tap water. I add AmQuel by Kordon, API Proper PH 8.2 Buffer, and AragaMILK Calcium & Buffer at each water change. Then I add a capful of Cycle Saltwater Treatment by Nutrafin to the tank.

I am using SeaChem Reef Salt.

Should I really dump the Biowheel and filtration stuff? Seems like a drastic step?

Thanks for all your help!

Jim

 

[mynd]

Hello there,

1. Check out my thread in my signature.. read it.
2. Lose the Bio-wheel, that is what the rocks are for.
3. Turkey baster your rockes every other day.
4. Use filterfloss in the overflow to capture debris and change each week when you do your water change
5. Do your water changes without fail every Saturday and do about 3 gallons. Remove 2 gallons from the main tank and leave the last gallon for the back chambers
6. Feed your tank ONCE a week and keep your hands out of the tank otherwise until the nitrates go down.
7. Read MY THREAD!

Kind regards,
Mynd

 

[ageek2000]

Hey Mynd. Thanks for your advice.

I read the majority of your thread. Cool project and a nice tank.

I turkey baster the rocks once a week during the water changes. I will do that every other day as you have advised.

Unfortunately, my tank does not have an overflow or sump. I could take the Eclipse filter out and put something else in there -- I will look around for Filterfloss. . .

OK -- I will keep my hands out of the tank. I usually get in there and wipe some algae (brown stuff on inside of glass) once a week. But won't feeding the fish once a week starve 'em?

Man -- are you guys sure I should lose the Biowheel?

What do you think of getting more live rocks? Do I have "enough"?

Thanks for all your help!

Jim

 

[onefish2fish]

remove the bio wheel. plenty of bacteria is growing on your live rock. bio wheels are freshwater filters. they dont remove anything from the water they add to it.

crushed coral IMO isnt any good. it seems to trap things in it because of its large size.

the tap water might be containing nitrates right from the start. tap also can contain phosphates, copper and other nasties you do NOT want to add to your tank. i suggest using RO/DI water.

 

[ageek2000]

Hey Onefish. I think the tap water is OK because I test the saltwater mix before I add it. I let it sit for a day or two, and the levels are always fine. Nitrates are always at 0.

I'm going to get some more live rock tomorrow and ask about "filter floss." I figure more live rock can't hurt. Also -- I'll take some of the crushed coral out; no need to have an inch of it on the bottom I guess. . .

Onefish -- are you saying that the Biowheel is hurting my tank?

Can't some company make a product that removes nitrates? Geeze. Can't a forum member here invent that stuff?

Thanks for all your help!

Jim

 

[jsantoli]

everyone has suggested removing the biowheel. And using tap water is definitely going to hurt you in the long run...a lot. Asking advice is the best idea when unsire, but you should also try and follow the advise too.

 

[panmanmatt]

And using tap water is definitely going to hurt you in the long run...a lot.

What is considered the long run? I have been using untreated tap water exclusively for 6 years. I guess I should tell my corals it isn't good for them and maybe I'll have to stop fragging them.  And I guess my fish need to know it's bad for them too so they will stop breeding.

You do not need RO/DI to keep saltwater successfully. If you can get away with using tap water then why shouldn't you use it. And don't ask me what my TDS or other readings are on my water because I don't know nor do I care to. All I know is that tap water is working for me.

Doing regular water changes and cleaning your mechanical filtration on a regular basis it will keep your nitrates in check. Don't worry about trying to get a zero nitrate reading, just try to keep it below 15-20. Do a couple 2-3 gallon water changes every other day and clean or replace your filters weekly. You can even clean the bio wheel in the used water you take out of the tank.

This just another opinion and option for you to consider.

 

[mynd]

Not all of us live in an area where the water is good enough.. NOT KNOWING YOUR TDS out of your faucet is well... foolish and I don't mean any disrespect to you pan. Using tap water is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You don't care if you leech iron or phosphates or other crap into your tank then that is just stupid.. HOWEVER, if you are as fortunate as pan to be living some place where the water is that good, then go right ahead.

rock IMO should be 2x water volume and in some cases more depending on how dense it is. Get rid of the crushed coral IF YOU DECIDE TO HAVE CORALS in the tank. If you are going to do a FOWLR, then who really cares and then nitrates even at 60 or 80 are not the best for the fish, but most fish can handle it. CORALS WON'T! and if they do you are just lucky.

Using tap water is a ticking time bomb for algae blooms and killing your critters.. Chances are your shrimp died from that more then the nitrates. Who knows what is in your water.

BOTTOM LINE: DO IT RIGHT OR DON'T DO IT AT ALL. THIS hobby is not very forgiving and if you want to spend lots of money and end up with a tank that looks like crap and kills off your inhabitants then send the money to my address now and don't look back. Patience, time and just doing it right go a long way in this hobby.. Don't take shortcuts or chances you don't have too.

If anyone differs I don't really care. It's my opinion..

 

[JRWOHLER]

Using RO water will make life easier. Less crap that goes in the less you have to worry about. The smaller the tank the faster it can go wrong. If you have a great source of water then you might get away with it, but as a newbie try to follow the rules. Guys like Matt can get away with what they do because they know what they are doing and have learned to do it their way. What works for him may not work for you and might not work for me(didn't work for me). FYI I started with a 10G tank with a bio wheel...I grew hair algae like a hippie.

 

[ageek2000]

THIS hobby is not very forgiving and if you want to spend lots of money and end up with a tank that looks like crap and kills off your inhabitants then send the money to my address now and don't look back.

Haha! Great quote!

This is a starter tank for us. We wanted to go small to see if we could handle it. We are learning a lot and trying to improve things for the fish. We are having fun with it. People come over and comment on how nice our tank looks. But we've still got a ways to go.

Thanks for all your suggestions, everyone! I am planning to do water changes twice a week for a little while instead of once. I have been turkey basting the rocks once a day. What is all this crap that builds up on the rocks, anyway? I'll check out the RO water. . .

I had been replacing the filter media about once every three weeks. I'll move that up to once a week.

I plan to get another ten pounds of cured live rock over the next couple of days.

And yea -- the Biowheel is going to go. Bye bye! Haha.

Thanks for your time, everyone!

Jim

 

[Edwardw771]

WHAT'S WITH THE CAPS? That means YOU ARE YELLING. Remeber there are a million ways to keep a reef. Please share what works for you and leave it at that. Way less people get upset and way more get value from our experice. Ok off the Soap box I go.

 

[mynd]

I think you can tell from what I wrote that there was no YELLING indicated any place other then by using caps. I know that net lingo indicates yelling with CAPS, but then how do you enhance what you are saying ( bold it? ) I figured unbolded caps would indicate ( A POINT ) if it came across the wrong way I am sorry.

NOW DO WHAT I SAY! lol

 

[Hawkeye]

What is all this crap that builds up on the rocks, anyway? I'll check out the RO water. . .

Detritus is the word we use...

just for the record i used tap water on my old 55 gallon and it worked fine. Mind you I didn't have tridacnid clams or sps corals - but all of my fish and softies were totally fine. The gorgonians especially seemed to proliferate. The usual mushrooms and zoas seemed to go on and on (invasive is the word that comes to mind).

Anyways I didn't see if anyone mentioned the crush-coraled but in a nano tank I could see how that might be another source of your NO3.

 

[JRWOHLER]

There are a lot of ways to run a reef tank. mynd might have a strong opinion but I followed his advice and it worked for me. His nano is very very nice and is always stable so it obviously working for him. IMHO a nano will get out of whack easier then say a larger tank so all you can do to eliminate potential problems the better.

 

[ageek2000]

UPDATE! I completed the following tasks this week:

I purchased and added 9 lbs of cured live rock to the tank. This makes 23 pounds total in my 12 gallon tank. The live rock is arranged in a big mountain in the center of the tank; it looks great. The fish like to swim under a bridge that I made. . .

I took out the majority of the crushed coral that was at the bottom of the tank. There is only a slight covering down there now for aesthetic reasons. Even though I vacuumed the tank once a week -- it was nasty. . . You guys were right -- it had to go!

I did a 3 gallon water change. I checked the water before I added it; nitrates were at 0.

I checked the water today. Nitrates are at 20! This is a big drop from where I was last week -- 60 or 80!

I plan to stop using the AragaMILK Calcium & Buffer and go with a dose of PurpleUp instead.

I took out the bag of De*Nitrate stones from SeaChem and replaced it with a small bag of Chemi-Pure. I think that will work better. . .

Once the nitrates hit 15 or below, I need to get a "cleanup crew." I didn't know how important that is! I would also like to get one or two "Feather Dusters," but I don't know much about them. I have to do some research. . .

Thanks for all your help! I'll post here and let you know how it goes -- but I think the additional live rock made the difference!

Jim