Things we shouldn't keep - successes and failures.

[blange3]

There are some strong opinions in the reefing community about things that should and should not be kept.

In some cases the reasons are clear, in others not so much. Some species that are reputed not to fare well in general, can thrive for a few who have "the knack."

Given the current clmate of concerns over regulating the reefing community, I would like to gather information that might be helpful in refining the current views of what can and cannot thrive in our artificial environments and what should and should not be kept for reasons outside of whether or not it can live in captivity.

I'll start by listing the things I have in my own tanks that some may consider better off left in the ocean.

1) Green gonipora - 14 months old and doing well

2) Australlian Elegance Coral - 2 months and so far so good

3) Long Tenacled Anemone - 10 years and counting. Kepr for many years in a 20 long with 65 watt compact flourescent lighting.

4) Blue Linckia Starfish - recent acquisition.

I've got a meeting to go to, so I'll justify each acquisition later.

So who's next? Moorish Idol owners? Blue ring octopus keepers?

 

[ReeferNets]

MY WHOLE TANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I shouldnt keep any of it but i do. The one thing i can safely say i def shouldnt have is my gigantea carpet anemone. Its so hard to get them to live and when they do its only for a portion of thier life unless your Bill.

 

[blange3]

I think there was a certain amount of luck with the LTA, Barry.

When I was recovering from my bypass operation in 2002, it lived in a 20 long with a fluval 104 filter, the smallest minijet made and a 65watt compact flourescent smartlamp while no maintenance was being done except for topping off with RO/DI.

I can't even claim that good water quality compensated for the lack of flow and light. And it rarely ate during that time.

But it still thrives today!

 

[ricwilli]

I don't think I have anything in my tank that I shouldn't have. I try very hard to stay away from species that are hard to keep. I think we all need to do research on the animal that we would like to keep, instead of buying it cause it looks pretty or its a LE coral. That being said "I'm going to go buy a Kenya Tree".....

By the way. Last month I purchase a pair of Grade B Picasso Clowns and they only lasted 3 weeks. I only have a Blue Hippo, Yellow Tang and a Six Line Wrasse in my 90. They been in the tank for over a year. Go figure.

 

[jimroth]

I've usually had good luck with the Copperband, it's my favorite fish and I dote on it a little. Yet I have seen it on many people's non-no list and was recently told by an LFS employee in NJ that they stopped selling them, "because people can't keep them alive." Yet with yellow longnose butterflies, supposedly hardier, I'm 1 for 2.

My orange linckia lost a leg after a couple of months of apparent health. I fear it may be the beginning of the end, but he's still making his way around the tank. I'm hoping that vodka dosing isn't the cause; stealing his food supply.

I get irrationally sore at stupid stuff like people buying moorish idols (a common fish in its range) or flame scallops (I have murdered 24 bivalves at a sitting. With cocktail sauce!) . Some stuff just seems dumb like people killing 3 or 4 specimens in the quest to have a surviving H. Magnifca anemone. Or stores selling eensy weensy mixed butterflies, I don't see that as much as I used to. Maybe we're making progress..

Or that ad they used to have in Boys Life where they would sell you a monkey, mailorder, for $25. I mean, really.

 

[magic]

The only thing in my tank that I shouldn't is a flame scallop. It's over 2 years and still healthy knock on wood.

Bob

 

[JohnS_323]

One big <<<ANTI-JINX>>> to everyone who is claiming luck with normally hard to keep species.

I won't say a thing about whether or not we are having success with anything, easy or hard. EVERY TIME I do, I wind up flushing it!

 

[MadReefer]

I agree with RICWILLI and research everything before getting it. If many claim it's difficult I normally avoid it. That doesn't mean I have tried some thinking I could provide for them. The biggest problem is determining did I do something wrong or get a poor specimen. Then have to decide if I should try again.

 

[blange3]

So the justification for my choices.

Everything purchased was researched in detail and not purchased on a whim. I agree that extensive research is needed before any purchase is made.

I bought the goni as my birthday discount piece last year at Aquatic Obsessions. At the time my main tank was over 2 years old and supporting a population of LPS corals who like moderate flow and moderate lighting. I was not planning an upgrade at the time so I expected it to have a very stable and mature environment for a long time. I did a lot of reading and was convinced that I had the right lighting, flow and life in the water column to support a goni. I was expecting problems with my upgrade to a 180, but so far so good.

In short I don't think goni's do as well in today's intensely lit, nutrient poor, high flow systems. But since I light with VHO's, use moderate flow and run a nutrient rich system with a sandbed to encourage good populations of micro fauna, I made a conscious decision to acquire a green goni because I was convinced I had the proper conditions for it.

Ditto for the elegance and the blue linckia, but its too soon to tell if I am right on these.

As far as the LTA goes, I went with the knowledge available at the time and it worked. Why most folks today feel that all anemones need halide lighting and ultra high flow, yet I was successful with the total opposite, is beyond me. But sometimes the conventional wisdom, isn't.

 

[concept3]

I almost almost almost almost bought a harem of moorish idols for a phenomenal deal- after Bill shed some light, I read and read and read, and decided not to get them. Maybe when I have a 500 gallon tank, maybe then, would I think about getting them, so thanks Bill!






Hmmm, let me see- I have kept Copperbands, Regal angels, different anthia, now an emperor angel- here are some recommendations and precautions on how and why:


Copperband butterflies- hit or miss. Depending on where this species is collected. Unfortunately, most that are imported from the Philippines are caught using cyanide or camphor. They usually don't last longer than a year. Have your LFS keep and hold one for you for at least a week or longer. If you're close to your LFS peeps, have them show you to make sure they eat frozen or prepared foods. This is a good sign and a healthy start. Most copperbands don't get enough nutrition due to competition in the tank, and they will definitely need supplementation from the fauna in the tank. They are nocturnal hunters too, hunting pods in low light. See copperband feeding tube in the fish forum somewheres.


Regal angels- tough to keep, and very finicky feeders. Unfortunately, unless you feed very heavily, they will slowly starve. Also, for some reason, most regal angelfish that are collected from the Red Sea fare better than others collected elsewehere, probably due to the competitiveness and biodiversity of the reef organisms there.


Anthia- I love these guys, they are one of the reasons why I fell in love with the Acroporids. Seeing them swarm just above the huge branching coral heads with the sunlight glistening under the water's surface made me want to go the SPS route. I waited a good year before I got my first anthia. They have a high metabolism and are always looking for something to eat. Feed often, feed light, and make sure you have at least 3 if you plan on keeping a school. A pair of anthia usually dwindles to one. Keep in groups of 3,5 or more if the tank can handle it. I cheat the other fish into eating the larger pellets first, taking my time. After all the fatsos are done gorging themselves with pellets, I then dump a cube or two of frozen fish food (grated shrimp, bloodworms, daphnia, etc etc). Even though the other fish will eat, they won't devour everything. The anthia can now feed in peace. I leave all pumps off for at least an hour so my corals get to eat too.


Emperor angel- Ever since I saw a buddy's emperor that was 8 years old, I knew I had to get one sooner or later. I finally found one that was eating at my LFS, and I had them hold it for at least a week. It ate everything that I put in the holding tank, a good sign. It's a beautiful fish, but now I'm starting to notice its aggressive behavior. It's not really territorial, but it bullies everything in the tank. Sooner or later, it's gonna have to find a new home. They get large, and I was hoping to have moved and into another place with a larger tank then, like 3 years from now. We'll see how much bullying I can stand. Anyone have a fish trap I could borrow?


Wrasses- most are territorial with each other. and the buggers are jumpers, so keep a lid or eggrate on top of the tank. I learned the hard way, so did Jim recently.

 

[blange3]

Great post Merv.

Keep reminding me that I helped talk you out of moorish idols, because I keep coming close to giving them a try!

Feng had a pair when he first started setting up his place in the big display. Anyone know if they are still around?

Do you still have the Regal Merv?

I don't think there is anything wrong in trying to keep a difficult species as long as they are not endangered, threatened or invasive. But you must do it in a responsible manner and commit to providing the care necessary.

What we should never do is buy an animal with the attitude, "I'll give this a shot, if it lives, it lives."

 

[JohnS_323]

...Feng had a pair when he first started setting up his place in the big display. Anyone know if they are still around?...

Yeah, they were still there as of last Saturday.

 

[JRWOHLER]

I have tried to be better safe then sorry. So my shouldn'ts are rather mild.

Successes
I have two tangs hippo and naso in 120 ... well hippo was my first fish with ick of course but worked hard to get him healthy and ick free before taking out of QT. Would say that the dedication needed for him served as a good lesson for future fish.

Failure
Firefish in an open tank. I did my best to put him in first, start with low lighting early on, and well he of course ended up as a dried fish. Very pretty but not active.
This was a realatively cheap lesson/reminder that the tank is open.

Of course I had a pygmy angel jump to which is a further lesson that any fish can jump.

My bangaii is CB so did that one the right way.

I sort of would like to try a copperband one day and if I get to the point that I have the need to try it I know that I have some good ideas from people here to make it successful. I am also wondering what sort of sponges I could collect by my house for other finicky feeders. Does anyone collect local food(think Matt does right?).

 

[blange3]

I have tried to be better safe then sorry. So my shouldn'ts are rather mild.

You are a model reefer James! No shouldn't there. Tangs need room and veggies and are prone to ich. You covered your bases.

Firefish are grea, but you need a good cover.

Very responsible with the cardinals. You are the type of reefer who will oneday be able to try something untried and add to the body of knowledge!

 

[blange3]

So any blue linckia success stories? Mine is hiding in one general area of the rockwork, but moves enough that I know he hasn't died. But he hasn't been out and about since the first day, which was Saturday.

 

[Jcurry@wesketch]

I would have to say that most of my failures in the early years were due to a faulty setup. I suffered a lot of losses when my sump would overflow or the overflow box would lose shiphon, the heaters would boil my tank, etc., etc.
The other loses I attribute to ignorance about livestock such as
Green brittle serpent stars are predetory not just scavengers.
Gulf rock is loaded with Mantis Shrimp and they can live in your tank for years without being seen.
Fish with eyes positioned close together and forward on the head are typically aggressive and predetory (i.e. the pseudo chromis springeri I purchsed that killed every new purchase within minutes of introduction no matter how much bigger it was)

Other failures include:
Green Gonipora
Aveleopora
Flame scallop
Copperband (although later I had success with one for a year before I sold it)
Long nose butterfly
Anthias
Potters Angel
Goatfish
Horseshoe crab

 

[beerfish]

Another reefer brought up an interesting point to me last night...

Not that long ago, the list of "Things we couldn't keep" included all saltwater fish. Clams and all anemones were on the list until recently, and plenty of fish that once couldn't be kept are now being bred in captivity.

I'm not saying we should keep something that's likely to die, or that we shouldn't do some research and know what we're getting ourselves into before we buy a difficult piece of coral or fish, but if we do the research ahead of time and do what we can to provide the right enviornment... we might learn something.

One thing that we should all do if we buy something difficult, is try to determine why it died, or why it's living in your tank. Report back on boards about it and let everyone learn from your failures and your successes.

 

[blange3]

Another reefer brought up an interesting point to me last night...

Not that long ago, the list of "Things we couldn't keep" included all saltwater fish. Clams and all anemones were on the list until recently, and plenty of fish that once couldn't be kept are now being bred in captivity.

I'm not saying we should keep something that's likely to die, or that we shouldn't do some research and know what we're getting ourselves into before we buy a difficult piece of coral or fish, but if we do the research ahead of time and do what we can to provide the right enviornment... we might learn something.

One thing that we should all do if we buy something difficult, is try to determine why it died, or why it's living in your tank. Report back on boards about it and let everyone learn from your failures and your successes.

Exactly my intent in starting this thread Beerfish. Well said!


But when we take risks to learn something new, we must do so responsibly.

Goniporas and elegance corals have been sold for ages and and to my knowledge are not endangered. Since I'm an experienced reefer with at least average reefing skills in most areas and a good track record keeping LPS corals; I felt it was OK to experiment with these. If somone offered me a rare SPS that no one else has been successful with, I would pass on the opportunity.

 

[beerfish]

It's amazing how much we've learned over the years in this hobby, and what the hobby has contributed to the science.

A lot of people don't realize this, but the hobby can and does actually influence the way things are done in large public aquariums. For instance, protein skimmers were widely used in the hobby before becoming accepted on a large scale in many public aquariums. It's much cheaper to attempt things in our smaller tanks than it is for the aquariums to try something on their thousands of gallons.

One of the things I've wanted to try for a long time is a carnation coral. Eventually, I'll set up a species tank for it, place it properly, and attempt a combination of phyto strains regularly for feeding. If I do this in a small enough tank, I'll be able to change the water often enough to keep the levels down, but provide plenty of food. If anyone here has had any luck with them... let me know.

 

[JRWOHLER]

***We should always make sure the species is not endangered***
Wild caught Bangaii for example have a pretty lousy survival rate. If by buying a fish that will not live but is constantly imported we are doing harm then by promoting further collection.

I am chicken for the most part so while guys like Merv experiment I am happy to watch but probably wouldn't take the jumps that he has. I can see eventually taking more risks, but hate to see relative beginners take stupid risks too.