Better than RO water!

[Tazmaniancowboy]

Is this thing certified by any aquarium exports to be safe for our tanks?- I'd like to see 2 water samples one using RO and one using this sent to a place like aquariumwatertesting.com. (Of course the beginning water would need to be the same source.)

The TDS issue is also a concern. Remember the life of these animals is in our hands.

Out of my own curiousity and for the company as well I am going to be sending water out for a testing to a site like aquariumwatertesting.com
I will get it done soon as possible and will be posting the test results as soon as I get them.

I wonder if the water should be tested by a more specialized water testing company. Aquarium water testing is specialized for water parameters already in our tanks and test for certain parameters that are important, but would this be too little to test for? In other words your may/may not let some kind of metal or something through that RO/DI units may not and I think there should be a more detailed test like a well water test than the tests that AWT is capable of doing.

I am by no means an expert or educated on water, this is just a thought that came to mind when AWT was mentioned to test the water. I also want to state that I am totally open to using your system if it fits my needs after learning more about it so I am not trying to discredit it by any means, we just do not know enough about it. I applaud you for wanting to go further by testing the quality of the water, However shouldn't this have been done already? I also agree with Ed in that the testing should be side by side with a RO/DI unit using the same source water for comparison. To further I think testing should be done at 2 different water sources, maybe a city water and a well water site. I'm not trying to beat up your company but not all waters are the same and I'm sure you are aware of that.

Again, these are just my thoughts about a field that I/we are uneducated in. On this forum our concern is the health of our "mini" reef and their inhabitants which is hard enough to keep in check. I would hope that all aspects are thought about and tested before somebody uses this in place of a RO unit.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Hopefully somebody that is an expert in water composition will chime in because my thoughts may be way off.

Taz

 

[Mbodell]

I agree with taz that it would have to be against two different sources and also compared to an ro without a di stage. Also curious how it would handle chlorine vs chloramine.

 

[Phyl]

I agree with Taz also. I would want it tested against an RO/DI (or Kati-Ani) with zero TDS output as that is our ultimate goal for our aquariums. I think this test should be done at Malulu's house. What ever CAN be in water MUST be in his with his really high inbound TDS.

Of course it might make a good first stage to Dave's water to ensure that his other filters last longer!

 

[blange3]

This would be a good topic for Boomer to chime in on.

0 TDS is not necessarily the required standard. If all the noxious elements like nitrates, phosphates, silica, heavy metals, etc. are at acceptable levels, 0 TDS is not necessary.

I'm not up to date on current salt formulations but in the past salts were formulated in a manner expecting tap water to be used. That is why many salts when mixed using RO/DI needed to have buffers added as the expected contribution from tapwater was missing.

If this system can be paired with salts that are formulated for tapwater and it can be shown that it filters the undesirable components of tapwater;it has a potential to eliminate routine buffering of newly mixed artificial saltwater.

 

[Edwardw771]

PM Mr. Boomer. Hopefully will jump in here.

 

[Phyl]

Testing to know when your filters expire will need to be modified if you were to choose this type of filtration. Right now I know when my TDS hits X I need to change my filters. If your TDS baseline is Y then does that mean that when your TDS gets to Y+X you need to change it or is the forumla suddenly different? Does Y change from day to day? I'm sure it does in the well water folks. Not sure about city water.

I'll have to go home and read my salt bucket. I can't believe it expects tap given today's reefing community.

 

[malulu]

sure, we can setup the test base at my home. (TDS=256+)

i have Cati-Ani, so bring your own RO/DI...

some quick points for human consumption:
- as i understand, we can not drink the RO/DI water, cause it is too PURE?
- for the RO water, some studies claim it is good, but other studies claim it is not good?

so, if this new unit is targeted for house hold usage (drinkable), it won't be suitable for aquarium use, unless there are some additional stage/add-on for the aquarium usage.

thx

 

[NEWSALT]

sure, we can setup the test base at my home. (TDS=256+)

i have Cati-Ani, so bring your own RO/DI...

some quick points for human consumption:
- as i understand, we can not drink the RO/DI water, cause it is too PURE?
- for the RO water, some studies claim it is good, but other studies claim it is not good?

so, if this new unit is targeted for house hold usage (drinkable), it won't be suitable for aquarium use, unless there are some additional stage/add-on for the aquarium usage.

thx

I sort of mentioned this in my post. I think it might be ok for aquarium use if the water from this new unit was run through an RO stage and then a DI stage. Here's a quote from my post:

" I wonder if the 3 stage filtration your describing would be a good replacement for the 3 stage units that are ahead of our RO/DI units. It seems like the water would be much cleaner before it gets to the RO stage and because of that my prolong the life of the RO membrane"

 

[paintballe48]

sure, we can setup the test base at my home. (TDS=256+)

i have Cati-Ani, so bring your own RO/DI...

some quick points for human consumption:
- as i understand, we can not drink the RO/DI water, cause it is too PURE?
- for the RO water, some studies claim it is good, but other studies claim it is not good?

so, if this new unit is targeted for house hold usage (drinkable), it won't be suitable for aquarium use, unless there are some additional stage/add-on for the aquarium usage.

thx

That would be good. I cannot bring a whole house unit into your house for a test haha but we do have smaller portable units that I can bring in with me. We also have magnets that simulate the magnetic stage on the filters. Ok basically what is being left in the water is not much. In scenerios where people do have hard water all that is left to be broken down is calcium and magnesium. (no more buffers!) =D haha. Also I do have labratory testing for a whole range of contaminents. If lead and iron are present in high traces we do also have units that focus specifically on that as well.

 

[paintballe48]

My manager had a meeting with my boss today about this. He said he would love to do more testing on the water and test for any contaminents we want. So if someone could basically list any contaminents that could be potentially harmful to our fish I will foward it to him and get them tested. Also R/o tends to take out benefitial elements in water as well, other than calcium and magnesium are there any other things that would be benefitial? And get a TDS test done as well? Just let me know where i should go from here =)

 

[Boomer]

More magic in a fancy cylinder.


First, it DOES NOT remove WH. Meaning it does NOT remove cations or anions, such as Ca+, Cl-. What do you mean all that is left to be broken down is calcium and magnesium. You can't break down ions, what the heck are going to break them down into. There is no such thing as Alchemistry. (no more buffers!) Where did they go ? If you are forming scale that is a solid like Calcium sulfate or Calcium carbonate, which pulls buffers down taking Ca++ with it. But you say the Ca++ is still there. That is called magic. What is even funnier is they say magnetic field to soften water reducing formation of scale on water heater What ? There are annuals of peer-reviewed articles on these units. They have an effect on the formation scale, as magnets can cause a shift in crystal formation of scale. So, Magnetic fields can affect the dissolution and precip of at least some compounds. However, almost all of this is not due to the magnets but the iron, which the magnets are made of, which causes a shift in scale formation. Thus, reduces scale but the ions are still in the water, and since ions of Ca++ and CO3- make up scale that means the Ca++ and CO3-- ions are still in the water. When scale is formed it REDUCES ions in the water. Meaning, scale reduces WH. Such units have been proven to have about zippo effect on TDS or the removal of free cation and anions.

They say it has a .2 micro filter, that is not squat, as many bacteria and most virus get through. This unit is nothing more that a sediment, GAC and submiron filter and that is all. It is the GAC and submiron filter that is doing 99.9 % of the filtration. It is fine for Human drinking water if you want to pay and arm and leg for one


When any company make these wild claims the first question I ask is "Please show me your certified data sheet of all the constitutes of the water sample before and after it goes thorough such a unit." All such companies just give me hype and no data sheet. So, ask yourself, why is that. ?? If this unit is such a great thing where is a data sheet. They should be throwing them out there if this device was so great. Giving a list means squat. Many in this hobby are worried about two things, Nitrate and Phosphate and this unit says squat about either. Manny municipalities have over 10 ppm Nitrate, you can find Sulfate in the 100's ppm. This unit dose nothing for them or chloride or many other ions,i.e., Bromide, Floride, Barium, Lithium, Nitrate, Potassium, Sodium, etc. Chloramines: What happens to the Ammonia from the GAC breaking it down to Chlorine and Ammonia ? GAC takes out Chlroine by converting it to chloride (now we have crap loads of that in our water) but with all the ammonia still left behind.

Now, to the major question at hand Can one use such a unit and can it be safe for a reef tank. Sure, as can some tap water. Both myself and Randy have said for years, one can use tap water once you know what is in it. It is not that all tap water is unsafe for a reef tank. I used Lake Superior tap water or 35 years and it is famous for its purity. Despite that, most reefers in my area still use a RO/DI. So, if one wants to be sure, with no guessing, then a RO/DI or Kati-Ani or at least a good RO.

Lastly, this is the NJRC and NJ has some of the worst water in the nation, which is nothing new. So, IMHO RO/DI only.

Finally, I see some have asked for a price but none was ever given. WHU like these are on order of ~$2000 - $4000 and cost $300 - $800 / year to run. And units are often rented at ~$30 - $60 / month. A RO or a RO/DI beats this thing to death in water purity and cost. And since when do RO or RO/DI have high maintenance cost. WHU are very expensive and have a very high maintenance cost on my bank account.

. We also have magnets that simulate the magnetic stage on the filters.

Not worthy of a comment

 

[Boomer]

Just let me know where i should go from here =)

Tell you boss to send a unit to a certified lab for testing. If he won't is is just hype

 

[Hawkeye]

Lastly, this is the NJRC and NJ has some of the worst water in the nation, which is nothing new. So, IMHO RO/DI only.

Boomer thanks for your comments as always. This statement above made me fall of the chair laughing. I moved to NJ 3 years ago and was spoiled by Manhattan tap water. Holy cow the water here (Metuchen) is awful.

 

[Tazmaniancowboy]

This is awesome that they are willing to do this. Must be a good product. Can't wait to see how this plays out.

Taz

 

[Dave]

Both myself and Randy have said for years, one can use tap water once you know what is in it. It is not that all tap water is unsafe for a reef tank.

Great input Boomer.

What levels do you feel you need to be at to green light your tap water.

How frequently should it be tested and by who.

 

[Edwardw771]

Thanks Boomer like always you are the man.

 

[paintballe48]

Just let me know where i should go from here =)

Tell you boss to send a unit to a certified lab for testing. If he won't is is just hype

http://www.ehpcarico.com/images/image/applied Letter-pagesize.jpg

That is a link to lab based testing with before and after results on our product. I simply was trying to get more specific testing done just to suit aquarium use and thats why I was asking for it. It gives you whats going into the filters and what is going out. From a credible lab with 38 years of experience.

Also as far a price is concerned he has been private messaging me about that and we are scheduling a meeting so i felt no need to persue it further on here. But considering you are curious yes whole house units are expensive and they are around 2.5k with free installation. Also we guarentee lifetime warrenty and have matenence plans that do not cost much which include all matinence costs. You are attempting to compare a unit that is made for a whole house application rather than a point of use system like the smaller units we offer. So take that into consideration as well.

I do need to run to work now but I will check this and post back soon as im home.

 

[Boomer]

Dave, usually when the TDS on the DI gets to a few PPM. There is no set rule. Some go with 1-2 ppm other up to 10 ppm. Tap water TDS it depends on the soruce and what the water assay sheet tells us. People kinda get ticked off when I show them my water report.

TDS = 53 ppm and Conductivity 100 uS

Now you start to subtract things like General Hardness, Alk, etc. and safe ions and you end up with "unknowns" ~ 4.5 ppm TDS. About the same as many RO waters. A good RO will give our water about 1- 2ppm TDS on the output.


Our Nitrate is 0.24 and PO4 is 0.017 ppm We do have Silica about 1-2 ppm. But a GFO or Activated Alumina will such all that out in an couple of hrs.

 

[Boomer]

I'm sorry but that is not a water lab report at all IMHO. Where is the Nitrite, Alk, Mg++, Ca++, Chloride, Ammonia, Barium, Floride, Mercury, Chromium, Cadmium, Arsenic, Copper, Sulfates, Chlorides, Zinc, THM, NTU,etc., etc.. It does not even give TDS or Conductivity, pH, O2 or BOD.



This is a review of water reports

Tap Water in Reef Aquaria
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/chem.htm

 

[Boomer]

This is what a real water report/assay should look like.


SLC Water Report
http://www.slcgov.com/utilities/pu web/water report.pdf