Led T5 lamps anyone.

[gogol]

I wanted to get some feed back on them, if anyone has seen them in action. They looked to be at a pretty good price point and can be added piecemeal which alleviates the pain to your wallet. Other than that, there's no need for reflectors on them, and ballast are less demanding and half the price of IceCap VHO ballasts.

I am sure as hell not going to put MH on my new 90G. T5 VHOs are good alternatives at lower maintainance cost and heat to MH. But the maintainance of LEDs are less and some systems are nearly comparable in prices.

I have been researching two such lights and have tried to contrast them on the following spread sheet:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tQpqtep4qLPJYT3qlL4CwKg&output=html. Please feel free to comment.





They just came up with their second generation models which are supposed to work better for 110V.

Here is a link to their product range: http://sunbritelighting.com/?p=12&c=10

 

[redfishbluefish]

What do you know about Sunbright? A little red flag goes up in my mind when I see relatively low prices, no product details and price differentials that are minimal. Look at their 20 inch unit ($199) versus their 6 foot unit ($269)….only a $70 upcharge for more then four more feet of aluminum light fixture…not to mention the cost of the additional led units. The other concern is that there is no detail on each individual light unit. All the pictures for their six different product sizes are the same…a picture of the end part of the fixture….and again, it’s the same picture for all six different light units. All the product info for each unit just gives a range, covering all their products. What wattage / light configuration do you get for the 48” unit? The info isn’t there on their website. I would like to see pictures of the light arrangement and specific information about each of their products. I don’t see that with the info that was provided on their website. Also, the cost seems too low. Consider the recent DIY that is on our site, where material costs alone exceed the retail of a comparable size unit from Sunbright.

Bottom line, this looks real interesting but I’m a little leery about a company that is not showing or telling me what they are trying to sell me.

I’d like to ask the question if anyone has purchased a unit from them and what their experience is with these units?

 

[Mbodell]

I think redfishbluefish is dead on with that. I would have to think you might get something with little toy grade leds on it with little par output. Unless you saw one in person, that website looks awfully suspicious. Personally I would talk to wingo if you really want something that you could DIY or retrofit. His leds seem to have a good par value and his prices seem fair. He is over on Manhattan reefers forum.

 

[Hirobo]

Check this site out
http://www.exotic-aquarium.com/index2.html
just because it's cheap doesnt mean it doesnt work have to see how it is in the long run. Maybe someone thats willing and has the extra couple of bucks and the knowledge can get a unit and test it

 

[gogol]

... First off they are in no way cheap ... a 8X48" fixture with light hood would cost you $1,360 (8 X 169.99 + 229). ... However they are cheaper than existing products, but we have experienced that with other products made at countries where labour is cheaper. Why is this a big exception? ... I think the major cost cutting is in QA, which of course is totally unacceptable.

I would say that adding 4' of metal to a mass produced housing, with labour rates in China should not even be $70. I am assuming around $50 of that is for an additional power supply, which seems in line with the cost of the power supply at Pacific Sun .. but this is just housing, and remember no reflectors ;D

The LED T5 bulbs have to be brought separately and vary from $100 to $270 as you go from 12" to 72"; and comparable size tubes are actually near double the price of Pacific Sun (is Poland the new China ?? )

... Manhattan reefs has a Pacific Sun group buy on the LED arrays that is ending today. If the reviews of that are well, then I would be seriously considering the bulbs from them. However their product line seems to have just been released (this October).

The market reports for Sunbrite are a mixed bag, the first generation white bulbs seemed to be all burnt out by 1 year. Exotic aquariums (Noth CA), a US distributor claims that it was because they got the voltage conversion from 220V to 110V incorrect (which basically raises massive doubts about their QA process).

 

[Hirobo]

It's still not a bad price. Their info is a little misleading too if what i am seeing on their site the fixture with no bulbs is 229 for a 48", then you have to buy the bulbs individually. I fired off an email to Exotic to see what it would cost to do a complete 48" unit

 

[Edwardw771]

IceCap has a new fiture out with LEDs and T5s or MH.
I'm tagging along on this one. I love lighting stuff.

 

[Mbodell]

Well I thought those prices were for the whole light. I still don't like the fact that they are using regular ol' bipin led bulbs and not any of the newer high output types. That is probably part of the reason they are cheaper.

 

[Hirobo]

IceCap has a new fiture out with LEDs and T5s or MH.
I'm tagging along on this one. I love lighting stuff.

I saw that fixture when I went up there to get my ballast checked out nice unit I wonder how much that one will cost

 

[Hirobo]

Well I thought those prices were for the whole light. I still don't like the fact that they are using regular ol' bipin led bulbs and not any of the newer high output types. That is probably part of the reason they are cheaper.

.

I see they came out with the generation 2 bulbs

 

[Buffalowing]

might want to go over to nano-reef.com and ask evil666, that guy does alot w/ Leds and if he see's a thread w/ LED questions he responds, see if he has any experience w/ them.

 

[rafal07013]

what LED bulbs should be used in your opinion?

Well I thought those prices were for the whole light. I still don't like the fact that they are using regular ol' bipin led bulbs and not any of the newer high output types. That is probably part of the reason they are cheaper.

 

[gogol]

But ..why are we discussing only Sunbrite?? .... Didnt any one check/like the Pacific Sun info that I had posted ?
http://www.aquariumled.eu/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2

Their youtube video shows really promising PAR values ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njy1Fv7C6BQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINKFOt6Y8s


Manhattan reefs just got done with a group buy, if the reviews are good, perhaps we can have one of our own ??? The introductory price they got was $375 for 90W (250 MH equivalent), $500 for 120W (300-400W MH equivalent) which is pretty insane !! But I really wanted to get some user reviews before jumping the gun.

If my calculations are right, then an equivalent retrofit made out of 11 X 21.5" tubes (cheaper than using half the number of 45" tubes) will be (11 X $58 + 2 X 65) = $768. But this setup has more color options than their LED array and has 2 power power supplies for dawn/dusk.

 

[rafal07013]

I will tell you anything you want around Nov 15th. just stop by and see in person.

But ..why are we discussing only Sunbrite?? .... Didnt any one check/like the Pacific Sun info that I had posted ?
http://www.aquariumled.eu/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2

Their youtube video shows really promising PAR values ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njy1Fv7C6BQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zINKFOt6Y8s


Manhattan reefs just got done with a group buy, if the reviews are good, perhaps we can have one of our own ??? The introductory price they got was $375 for 90W (250 MH equivalent), $500 for 120W (300-400W MH equivalent) which is pretty insane !! But I really wanted to get some user reviews before jumping the gun.

If my calculations are right, then an equivalent retrofit made out of 11 X 21.5" tubes (cheaper than using half the number of 45" tubes) will be (11 X $58 + 2 X 65) = $768. But this setup has more color options than their LED array and has 2 power power supplies for dawn/dusk.

 

[Mbodell]

The problem with 5mm leds (sunbrite)is that they lose 70% of their par value after 10,000 hours (2-3 years at 10 hours a day) vs the high power ones don't degrade that fast and would still have most of their par value intact at that point. SMD LED lights are good in terms of life, like the pacific sun ones. I don't know if the smds they are using will penetrate very deep since they chose to use ones that don't have integrated lenses. Obviously this was one of the cost cutting choices. So the light might be good on a 17" deep tank but I don't see it working well for anything deeper.

I personally think that I would rather make my own controllable led fixture vs buying one. Unfortunately PFO was the one company that dove in and didn't cut corners. I have a feeling a lot of these other companies are trying to come up with lower risk products now that aren't cutting edge or ideal but temporarily fill the demand in the market.

 

[rafal07013]

a) They are using Cree LED 16000k not SMD.
b) PAR readings: 2" depth - 1581 Par
12" depth - 551 Par
24" depth - 249 Par
these readings compare pretty well against 400W MH.

The problem with 5mm leds (sunbrite)is that they lose 70% of their par value after 10,000 hours (2-3 years at 10 hours a day) vs the high power ones don't degrade that fast and would still have most of their par value intact at that point. SMD LED lights are good in terms of life, like the pacific sun ones. I don't know if the smds they are using will penetrate very deep since they chose to use ones that don't have integrated lenses. Obviously this was one of the cost cutting choices. So the light might be good on a 17" deep tank but I don't see it working well for anything deeper.

I personally think that I would rather make my own controllable led fixture vs buying one. Unfortunately PFO was the one company that dove in and didn't cut corners. I have a feeling a lot of these other companies are trying to come up with lower risk products now that aren't cutting edge or ideal but temporarily fill the demand in the market.

 

[gogol]

I personally think that I would rather make my own controllable led fixture vs buying one.

I am cool with any option as long as it provides me an energy efficient alternative to T5 VHOs. There is another DIY LED light thread going on which I am also following.

But here are the questions I like to ask myself in a build vs buy situation:

What is the cost analysis of the existing product? Unless labour is way more than parts, DIY will never make sense.
Do I have the necessary knowledge and tools?
How can I be so sure that my time and effort input into the product would be more productive than that of (atleast) 5 guys who do this full time for a living?
How can I account for the fact that my built product will have no warranty and the existing product does?

Market forces will drive the prices down, as they are happening already. I think light is too critical an equipment to fiddle around with yourself. I dont see many DIY skimmers either. But I have always rathered a well-researched buy vs build.

The reason I really want LEDs (in spite of the fissure it would make in my wallet ) is because light is critical for all life. So when I am tuning them off, I would rather do it because the inhabitants dont need them, rather than worrying about the electricity bill or heat generated. LEDs are just that.

 

[rafal07013]

there is a risk to ANY LED fixture simply because they are new. you can do any research you want, I have done mine, but I cant find anyone using them for more than 2-3 yrs and nobody can tell how any of LED lights will perform 3-4-5 yrs from now. thats the problem i see.

you can get the PAR readings similar or better to T5 or MH, you can play with these lights since they are easier to control, but... nobody can answer how good they will be in 3-4-5yrs from now - thats what worries me most.

 

[Mbodell]

This is the led they are using in those lights.
http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/ledlamps/LM1-PWR1-11-N1%28153%29.pdf
They are 120 degree coverage. Usually you don't get that much light penetration with that wide of a coverage and they are less powerful than something like the Cree Xrs, K2s etc... Typically DIY people use the Cree XR-E or something close to that and get similar par readings from a lot less leds.

There isn't that much work involved for a rough DIY led light you could put in a canopy. If you build it, you would very easily be able to repair it. Also 3-4 years if they start fading it would be an easier fix to replace the leds versus buying a whole new manufactured fixture. Now not everyone is a DIY person and if you want a nice fancy light then I would suggest buying one but understand that repair pricing and replacing the led boards could be costly.

For a really good DIY, read soundwave's thread on reef central. He has par readings, instructions, and the cost (only $600)involved in the thread as well.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587273

I am probably going to copy soundwave's if I ever get the extra time and money for it.

 

[rafal07013]

Just to prove you are wrong:

lets compare PAR reading from your lighting (MH or T5) against these LED - any time after Nov 15th.

Tank size: 125gal, lighting: 3x250W hqi, 2x110W VHO, 2x80W( together 1130W!)
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=168811

Tank size: 8x54W(432W)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1352234&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

here is the PAR video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/aquariumledu#p/u/0/XaQSpiHViyQ

and one more:

http://www.youtube.com/user/aquariumledu#p/u/1/jzJVl7Iggys

This is the led they are using in those lights.
http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/ledlamps/LM1-PWR1-11-N1%28153%29.pdf
They are 120 degree coverage. Usually you don't get that much light penetration with that wide of a coverage and they are less powerful than something like the Cree Xrs, K2s etc... Typically DIY people use the Cree XR-E or something close to that and get similar par readings from a lot less leds.

There isn't that much work involved for a rough DIY led light you could put in a canopy. If you build it, you would very easily be able to repair it. Also 3-4 years if they start fading it would be an easier fix to replace the leds versus buying a whole new manufactured fixture. Now not everyone is a DIY person and if you want a nice fancy light then I would suggest buying one but understand that repair pricing and replacing the led boards could be costly.

For a really good DIY, read soundwave's thread on reef central. He has par readings, instructions, and the cost (only $600)involved in the thread as well.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587273

I am probably going to copy soundwave's if I ever get the extra time and money for it.