Looking for advice on parameters

[mfisher2112]

Ok, so my tank has been running for about 1 1/2 years now (wow, doesn't seem that long). Started as a 55, and upgraded to 90 gallon a few months back.

90 gallon AGA RR
20 gallon homemade sump with refugium burstin with life
2x150watt 10,000k ushio MH
2xpower compact just for blue (can't remember wattage, but it is negligible)
(Bulbs are only a couple of months old all around)
coralife superskimmer 125 (tuned up to skim a little wetter than usual)
Phosban reactor running phosphate material from group buy (brand name? dunno)
Phosban reactor running carbon for polishing
Mag 9.5 for return (dialed back a bit)
Hydor Koralia #3

I do not dose anything.

I feed a mix of frozen (formula B, mysid, brine, and a few others) and some garlic enhanced flake.

I feed every other day, or every 3rd day sometimes.

Livestock:

-2 tomato clowns (ora tank raised)
-1 yellow tang (about 3")
-1 blue spotted naso tang (no more than 3")
-5 small blue/green chromis (largest is only about 1.5",smallest is just under an inch)
-1 coral beauty angel (about 2 1/2 inches)
-1 juvenile dragon wrasse (What a damn DIGGER this guy is!) (about 2 1/2-3")
-1 small tank raised neon dotty back (about 2")
-2 bangai cardinals (small, presumed tank raised by seller)

Multiple zoas, torch coral, trachy brain, favia brain, red blastos, anthelia, small pulsing xenia, orange monti cap frag, gsp (these things are like WEEDS!)

Ok, so now that that is out of the way, here's the situation:

Been testing parameters daily for about a week now just to see what is going on.

Salinity pretty steady at 1.025
PH has averaged pretty rock steady at between 8.1 and 8.2 (salifert)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Calcium - Averaged between 425 and 450 all week long
Phosphates - Undetectible with API test
Temp rides between 80.9 and 82.1 (I have a fan on the top of the tank keeping everything cooled because of the addition of the Metal Halide lights)

Here's the kicker:

Alk has tested steadily at about 5.1, even though the PH and calcium is pretty steady.
And the nitrates are THROUGH THE ROOF! Now, the caviat here is that the nitrate is the only test (besides the phoshphate test kit) NOT a salifert test. It is an API test, and it tests OVER 100ppm. Even though everything seems to be doing well. The zoas are spreading, the blastos are doing well, and the trachy brain is even developing a new lobe.

First, I know that I am lax on water changes, but I can't figure out why the nitrates are so high if I am skimming wet, have a healthy fuge that is overrun with chaeto, and do not overfeed. My bioload may be a bit high, but it makes very little sense to me.
Other than the water changes (which I am planning a 30 gallon change tomorrow, as soon as my RO/DI is done replenishing), what can I do to help maintain this a little better. Keep in mind, I don't put anything in that tank except food. No chemicals whatsoever. And I don't use liquid bottled foods for corals either. I also have no sponges, bags, poly filters, pre-filters, post filters, or any mechanical filtration media of any kind on the tank other than the 130 pounds or so of live rock. Sand bed is aesthetic only at about 2" at it's deepest.

Second, how is it that my alk is so low, but my PH and calcium are acceptable and steady? Is it possible that I can stabilize all of these with more regular water changes? Or am I advancing into corals that need something added more frequently that they are consuming? I really don't like the idea of dosing anything in the tank, but I want everything to be healthy. Do you guys/gals think more regular water changes can get the alk back in line without affecting the PH and calcium levels (I use reef crystals)?

Thirdly, Is it beneficial to continuously prune down the chaeto in the fuge? Meaning, does the fuge eventually reach a saturation level where it is no longer beneficial because growth is stunted by space?

Thanks for any help!

 

[MikeNapoli]

I'm no expert by far .. but the others will ask you what kind of salt you're using.

Also the cheato as far as I know will just grow in a ball so instead of trimming it just clump it up tighter and let it grow out. That's what i've been doing .. My cheato grows extreamly slow though.

Also as far as your nitrates .. how old is your API test. I had one that was one of the first tests i got and all of the sudden it would read high nitrates for no reason. Maybe the chemical inside has gone bad. Get a new test and see how that works.

 

[Carlo]

Matt this doesn't sound surprising to me at all. I'll see if I can explain what's going on a bit and give you some ideas.

You already know you need to get the alkalinity level up so work on that. Try and only raise this about 1 dKH per day and not any faster then that.

I really don't doubt the 100 ppm nitrate test but it really wouldn't be a bad idea to take a sample to a LFS and get a 2nd opinion on them just to make sure.

You have a decent bio-load but nothing I'd consider to be high. I'd call your bio-load reasonable and would even say once the nitrates are back in check you might be able to add another fishy or two.

Typically high nitrates come from high levels of inorganics in the tank that break down. You don't currently have any export mechanisms in place except for the skimmer to get rid of these BEFORE they break down. In your case it appears the skimmer isn't doing a good enough job and needs assistance. The coralife superskimmer 125 is probably a better match for a 50-55 gallon tank then your 90. It's probably never going to be able to do the job needed for your size tank even skimming wet. Some easy cheap ways you could assist the skimmer are to use a sponge, filter sock, filter floss or anything of that nature that can trap and remove things from the water column. If you clean them every day or two you would be surprised how much they help. The more you remove in this fashion the less there will be to break down ultimately lowering nitrates.

It also seems you're light on media. The 2" sand bed isn't deep enough to help with nitrates. 130 pounds of rock in a 90 gallon probably isn't enough area either for the bio-load you are currently running with a small skimmer. This probably needs to be increased in some form or another. You are currently at about 1.4 lbs per gallon. If you have mostly Fiji rock which is pretty dense you would probably need somewhere in the 2-2.5 lbs per gallon to handle your current bio-load (educated guess only).

Obviously water changes will help but in a sense they are a band-aid (good one however) to the problem. A 25% water change should drop your nitrates by about the same percent. If you were to do a series of 25% water changes assuming your nitrates are currently 100 ppm this is what it would look like:
After 1st water change = 75 ppm
After 2nd water change = 56.25 ppm
After 3rd water change = 42.19 ppm
After 4th water change = 31.65 ppm
After 5th water change = 23.74 ppm

With 33% water changes it would go like this:
After 1st water change = 66.66 ppm
After 2nd water change = 44.44 ppm
After 3rd water change = 29.62 ppm
After 4th water change = 19.75 ppm
After 5th water change = 13.17 ppm

So the water changes themselves will lower the nitrates and DOCs in the tank but they will continue to climb back up again unless you make some changes.

Your cheato NEEDS to be routinely pruned and discarded. Just pull the outside of the "balls" off and throw this away. Cheato is not effective unless you do this. Otherwise as part of it dies off it releases the nitrates/phosphates back to the tank. By physically throwing part of the macro in the trashcan you ARE removing the nitrates/phosphate from your tank and allowing more room for it to grow!

As much as you don't want to dose anything you surely need to. If nothing else just calcium and an alkalinity buffer. Since you're light on corals for now maybe you don't even need to worry about calcium as regular water changes would suffice for it but alkalinity will surely need to be managed via reactor, kalk or a two-part solution. You could of course for a while not worry about calcium (let the water change handle it for you) and just dose a alkalinity buffer on a daily basis.

In general what I see is a lack of an efficient means of exporting your inorganic nutrients before they break down and not enough (or right kind) of media to "house" the needed bacteria used to break down the nitrates.

I hate to sound like an advertisement but the Open Sea Package-B (50-100 gallon) system I sell is exactly what you need to combat your problem and get relief. It's for the most part a biological process. It contains media that remove the inorganic nutrients that would assist your protein skimmer as well as media that would foster the bacteria your tank needs without additional live rock or DSB use. The media itself doesn't need replacing and the resins that adsorb inorganics/nitrogenous waste are good for about 2 years (can be regenerated). It also includes bacteria and food to kick start the process as well as coral food that will supply all the needed nutrients, vitamins and amino acids your corals need without super polluting the water causing nitrates to rise.

Regardless if you choose to go this route or not give the site a look at www.ReefComplete.com and check out the Manual on the left menu as much of this will pertain to your situation regardless of if you use my products or not. You'll still pick up some good ideas. There is far more information there then I could write here!

One of the things you'd pick up from the site that could be of use to you are the ratio of nitrates to phosphate you want to have. Without getting technical let me just say you actually want your phosphates to be 10% of your nitrate levels by ppm test kit measurements. Bacteria & algae need these two fuels supplies and if your phosphates are near zero they can't rid you of nitrates because they are phosphate limited. I'd remove the GFO you are currently running and allow the phosphates to climb a bit. This will supply the "food source" needed by the bacteria and algae to remove both the nitrates and phosphates. If you can keep your phosphates the first color change that is plenty.

Another thing you could try is a RDSB (remote deep sand bed) if you have room for one. This could be a 5 gallon bucket filled with about 50 lbs of sand. This will take about 2/3 months to kick in but is also a good way to lower nitrates.

Carlo

 

[mladencovic]

...
Also the cheato as far as I know will just grow in a ball so instead of trimming it just clump it up tighter and let it grow out. That's what i've been doing .. My cheato grows extreamly slow though.
...

DON'T do that !!! By clumping it, the strands in the interior will no longer have enough light, or proper gas and nutrient exchange. Without light, photosynthetic plants revert to consuming the oxygene and nutrients inside them until they die off, in which case they are actively contributing to the "polution" you are trying to fix with them.

Instead, simply cut the ball in half (or remove any part you like) and shake the strands as loose as possible so that they have the optimal ligtht absorbtion.

 

[Subliminal]

You could also add another form of algae to the display. Halimedia, for example.

 

[blange3]

Hey Matt,

Don't do too much, too fast.

Do a 25% water change and test again the next day. Verify the nitrates with another kit. As Mike suggested.

Start trimming the cheato as Mladen described.

Try adding filter socks as Carlo suggested and see where this gets you.

How often do you do water changes and what salt do you use? If you start using alk buffers I would go slowly and test daily. You may be OK with buffering your new salt water when you mix it and stepping up your water changes a bit.

Adopting a whole new system of managing the tank may help, just make sure it fits in your budget and your time to work on the tank. There is enough opportunity to tune what you are already doing first.

Have you modded the CSS125 at all? I did the simple fishline mod and got a noticeable improvement in output. Basically you just weave fine nylon fishing line in between the needlewheel spokes and you get more/finer bubbles into the skimmer.

 

[mfisher2112]

You know, I went over that post 3 times thinking I finally added everything that needed to be known! LOL!

Salt is Reef Crystals.

I also did a test on my well water (my RO/DI unit was down) and foun neglible phosphates (didn't register on the API test, which is brand new BTW) and 5ppm in nitrates. The TDS reading with my handheld was 280! OUCH!

So, I fixed my RO/DI unit, got everything up and running, and filled a 32 gallon brute with RO/DI which measured a whopping 2 with the handheld meter, 0 nitrates, and no reading on the phosphate test.

I'm embarassed to say I haven't done a water change in about a month. I was doing about 10-20% every 10 to 14 days. The largest I've ever done is 25%, never any more than that. That's left over from my fresh water days, I suppose. I've gotten lazy about it recently, which I need to remedy.

All the advice has been great, and greatly appreciated. I take everything fairly slow with this tank, so I have no plans to rush into anything that drastically changes the tank. At this point, nothing is showing ill effects from the current parameters, so I am just looking to slowly correct the issue before something drastic occurs.

I will prune the chaeto today. I stir it every now and then and break it up, but it really has grown to just about fill the chamber in the sump. All you can see is a green matte over the top! (Anyone want some chaeto on Saturday? LOL!)

I am planning the water change today, salt has been mixing all day. Probably about 25 to 30 gallons, which keeps in my personal 25% limit.

I should be able to remove the GFO, as my new water contains no testable phosphates, but that isn't really going to allow phosphates to climb. Unless of course removing a good amount of the chaeto allows something to remain that is being removed.

I have a canister filter, Rena Filstar XP4, that has never been opened (given to me, long story), so I could potentially run that with filtration media in it. I don't suppose I could make the nitrate problem any worse than it is with nutrient trapping media.

Isn't dosing some kind of alkalinity agent going to futz with my PH and calcium levels? Calcium has always ridden right around that 425 to 450 mark, so I have never considered dosing anything calcium related.

What I am trying to avoid is getting caught in a dose this, change that, dose for that, change the other thing situation, and before you know it I have umpteen reactors, drips, and bottles getting dumped into the tank on a regular basis.

Additional question: My understanding was that nitrates were something that essentially had to be exported from the environment because there wasn't really anything that broke those down. Has anyone had any experience with Seachem's Matrix material? It claims to be able to harbor bacteria that can remove trates.

My key (as Carlo knows from numerous conversations) is to get and keep the system operating as naturally as I can without regular multiple chemical interference.

I am going to test my RO/DI water, test my straight well water (which isn't actually strait as I run a whole house multi stage filter and water softener), then test my ro/di mixed salt water and compare the results. I'm curious if RO/DI will make a significant difference.

Is there a salt someone recomends over the Reef Crystals?

 

[mfisher2112]

Have you modded the CSS125 at all? I did the simple fishline mod and got a noticeable improvement in output. Basically you just weave fine nylon fishing line in between the needlewheel spokes and you get more/finer bubbles into the skimmer.

No, I wasn't even aware there were mods that could be done to it. I'll have to look into that. Aren't you worried about the fishing line coming undone and causing some kind of issue with the pump?

 

[mladencovic]

You could also add another form of algae to the display. Halimedia, for example.

I would stay away from halimedia or similar calcareous algae if I would to keep stoney corals since it competes with them for Ca. Also, I wouldn't consider it as efficient nutrient exporter for harvesting on the same scale as chaeto or caulerpa.

 

[blange3]

Have you modded the CSS125 at all? I did the simple fishline mod and got a noticeable improvement in output. Basically you just weave fine nylon fishing line in between the needlewheel spokes and you get more/finer bubbles into the skimmer.

No, I wasn't even aware there were mods that could be done to it. I'll have to look into that. Aren't you worried about the fishing line coming undone and causing some kind of issue with the pump?

I guess the worst thing that could happen is it would get tangled in the needle wheel, which it already is! ;D

Seriously, it's been in place for several months now and doing fine. RC had a pretty big thread on modding Coralife Skimmers. This mod was the least destructive. Most folks like to mount mesh pads to the impeller which requires some surgery to the needle wheel. This mod can be undone easily and has given enough of an improvement to make it worthwhile.

 

[mfisher2112]

Have you modded the CSS125 at all? I did the simple fishline mod and got a noticeable improvement in output. Basically you just weave fine nylon fishing line in between the needlewheel spokes and you get more/finer bubbles into the skimmer.

No, I wasn't even aware there were mods that could be done to it. I'll have to look into that. Aren't you worried about the fishing line coming undone and causing some kind of issue with the pump?

I guess the worst thing that could happen is it would get tangled in the needle wheel, which it already is! ;D

Seriously, it's been in place for several months now and doing fine. RC had a pretty big thread on modding Coralife Skimmers. This mod was the least destructive. Most folks like to mount mesh pads to the impeller which requires some surgery to the needle wheel. This mod can be undone easily and has given enough of an improvement to make it worthwhile.

Will check that out. Thanks!

 

[mfisher2112]

Ok, had a scare today. Power went out for a little over 4 hours.

Good news is, my sump didn't flood, my tank proved it could withstand 4 hours with no power, and all seems well. Everyone present and accounted for, and looking good.

Temp never dropped below 79.

Phew!

Anyway, needless to say, I did not get my water change done today. However, I did get some scary results when I tested the new salt water:

RO/DI Water showing TDS of 2
Reefcrystals salt
Salinity 1.026
Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate = 0
Phosphates between 0 and .25 (API Kit)

Here's the scary part:

PH = 7.7 (Salifert, I did this test THREE times with the same result)
Alk = 14.4+ (Salifert, new kit, I did this test THREE times with the same result)
Calcium = 490-500 (Salifert, I also did this test THREE times with the same result)

What the heck???

I'm scared to put this water in my tank!

I left the power head and heater running in the drum for the night. I will recheck it tomorrow, but are those results way off base or is it me?

 

[pgordemer]

Please take this in the spirit its intended in. Are you ABSOLUTELY positive you are doing the tests correctly.

I find new reefers to have problems with Salifert tests as they do the test wrong. Most of the time when using the syringe for titration tests, they are reading the wrong side of the test. Most common I see is filling the syringe up to the 1.0 using the bottom of the stopper, then reading the result of what is left from the top (account for MOST of the high reading of DKH and CA).

It might help to have someone else test your water. Where are you located, I can offer to bring my test kits and or watch you do yours. (Road trips are fun)

 

[jazzsam]

Please take this in the spirit its intended in. Are you ABSOLUTELY positive you are doing the tests correctly.

I find new reefers to have problems with Salifert tests as they do the test wrong. Most of the time when using the syringe for titration tests, they are reading the wrong side of the test. Most common I see is filling the syringe up to the 1.0 using the bottom of the stopper, then reading the result of what is left from the top (account for MOST of the high reading of DKH and CA).

It might help to have someone else test your water. Where are you located, I can offer to bring my test kits and or watch you do yours. (Road trips are fun)

I may take you up on that one! I have been having issues with testing my nitrates today. I can't seem to get a reliable test from all 3 of my systems! I am going to get some new tests this weekend.

 

[Subliminal]

You could also add another form of algae to the display. Halimedia, for example.

I would stay away from halimedia or similar calcareous algae if I would to keep stoney corals since it competes with them for Ca. Also, I wouldn't consider it as efficient nutrient exporter for harvesting on the same scale as chaeto or caulerpa.

Calcium = 490-500 (Salifert, I also did this test THREE times with the same result)

Sure it isn't on the same scale as chaeto or caulerpa, but neither of them are good in the display, and he already has a fuge full of chaeto, so it's just an addition.

 

[sc18702]

Is there a way to slowly increase PH ? without throwing off other parameters ?

 

[mladencovic]

Is there a way to slowly increase PH ? without throwing off other parameters ?

Easiest way is by using Kalk. Add very, very small amounts since it is very alkaline.

 

[mfisher2112]

Please take this in the spirit its intended in. Are you ABSOLUTELY positive you are doing the tests correctly.

I find new reefers to have problems with Salifert tests as they do the test wrong. Most of the time when using the syringe for titration tests, they are reading the wrong side of the test. Most common I see is filling the syringe up to the 1.0 using the bottom of the stopper, then reading the result of what is left from the top (account for MOST of the high reading of DKH and CA).

It might help to have someone else test your water. Where are you located, I can offer to bring my test kits and or watch you do yours. (Road trips are fun)

No worries, I'm not easily offended. Having been in the computer and consumer electronics field for so many years, the "is it plugged in" questions don't hurt my feelings!

I double and triple checked my testing. As far as I can tell, I am reading it correctly. Especially since using the same test, I am testing Alk at 5.1 and Calcium at 450 in the main display.

I'm going to test the new water again today.

If it still shows odd, I would be open to anyone bringing a test kit to the swap on saturday and testing it for me. No harm in getting a second opinion.

 

[mfisher2112]

Ok, so I went to test the water today and saw an oily film on the top of it. It didn't smell so hot either.

Upon further investigation, I found that the heater I had in there had exploded. Fantastic, huh?

I just don't wonder if that heater wasn't a problem from the start and was causing some of the eroneous test readings.

Ugg.. 30 gallons of water (not to mention the salt and the 2 days to fill the drum) ruined.

I emptied the water and scrubbed the drum with vinegar and water, and rinsed under high pressure until the vinegar smell was gone. Then I let it dry, and rinsed it some more just to be sure.

It is not re-filling with RO/DI...

Ugg..

 

[Carlo]

You don't have to worry about a tad bit of vinegar getting into things. Won't hurt anything. Actually some people mix it with their Kalk to get more in the solution.

How come you aren't filling with RO/DI again?

Carlo