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Looking for advice on parameters

mfisher2112

mfisher2112

Ooops. Typo. ;D

"It is NOW re-filling with RO/DI again..."


Ok, so I just picked up another nitrate test, just for kicks. It's still API, but a new kit. The other one was only about 2 months old, but I figured what the hell, can't hurt.

Nitrates tested at 10. Not over 160.

I tested again. Yup, 10.

Tested again with old kit, yep, 160+.

If I had a 10th floor, the old kit would have gone out the window of it!

Grrr...

So, test results of the tank are:

Temp: 80.7
Salinity: 1.025
Ammonia/Nitrite: Both 0
Nitrate: 10
PH=8.0 - 8.1
Phos= 0 - .25
Alk = 5.4
Calcium = 430 - 440


So, we still have the problem of the alkalinity.

I will also be testing the new made up water, AGAIN, once it is ready. Probably not until tomorrow night.
 
S

sinkingbeach

Hey Matt, I've been having issues with low Alk also but high PH, with your PH parameter I wouldn't be concerned nudging it up a bit with the b-ionic part A Alkalinity. Adding an once in the am and pm will nudge the PH up to 8.2 or .3 but I wouldn't be concerned with it.

You can use this calculator http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chemcalc.html to figure out how much you actually need to add.
 
ricwilli

ricwilli

I am no pro but I've been using non baked Pure Baking Soda (Arm and Hammer) to bring up the Alk. Its been working fine. It doesn't even effect the PH.
 
mfisher2112

mfisher2112

Ok, I've been reading for what feels like hours on all the different ways to bring the alk up. Just seems to me there is alot to consider. All interacts so closely, Alk, PH, Calc, other elements.

I'm not sure I'm convinced futzing with what seems to be doing well is something I want to undertake.

Now that I'm sure the nitrates are down to 10, I will still move on the water change hopefully tomorrow, and see what happens with the alk, PH and calcium after that.
 
C

Carlo

Alkalinity in the amounts you need to add aren't going to affect anything but pH and that is only temp thing as the tank will normalize anyway.

One thing for sure is that Alk = 5.4 is BAD, very BAD. It's way to low. If you keep the levels like that your corals WILL DIE. There isn't enough buffer in the water for proper calcification.

In a nutshell you can use baking soda or washing soda. Baking soda will lower the pH a tad bit but it will rebound back up. Washing soda (baked baking soda) will cause the pH to spike (add it slowly) but the pH will fall back on it's own as the tank normalizes.

If you want you can mix 1 part washing soda to 6 parts baking soda (7 parts total) and will end up with a solution of about 8.2 which is pretty ideal.

Most low nutrient systems will tell you to keep Alk between 7 and 8.5. Other people like to keep alk on the high side in the range of 9 to 11 dKH but pretty much everyone will tell you not to EVER let it get under NSW levels of 7 as the tank will suffer because of it.

You do want to bring the level up by 1 dKH per day (not faster) and get in the habit of testing this each day for a while until you get the levels stable at say 8.5 to 9 then test every couple of days to make sure the levels aren't changing. This of course will require daily additions of some type of buffer. It's FAR better to add buffer daily then every couple of days as keeping Alk stable is SUPER important and adjusting levels more then 1 dKH per day is one of the roughest things you can do to your corals.

Of all the things you need to test for and adjust Alkalinity is the most important items and short of doing daily/bi-daily water changes WILL REQUIRE the addition of some type of buffer daily via KALK, 2 part solution, Calcium Reactor or just using a standalone buffer.

Carlo
 
D

DaveK

mfisher2112 said:
...
Ok, so I just picked up another nitrate test, just for kicks. It's still API, but a new kit. The other one was only about 2 months old, but I figured what the hell, can't hurt.

Nitrates tested at 10. Not over 160.

I tested again. Yup, 10.

Tested again with old kit, yep, 160+.
Click to expand...

Ok, but how do you know the new test kit is good and the old one bad? It could easily be the other way around, or like the old proverb says "A man with two watches never knows what time it is, use one or three".

In other words, get yourself a lab grade test kit like LaMotte or Hatch, and compare.
 
mfisher2112

mfisher2112

Carlo said:
Alkalinity in the amounts you need to add aren't going to affect anything but pH and that is only temp thing as the tank will normalize anyway.

One thing for sure is that Alk = 5.4 is BAD, very BAD. It's way to low. If you keep the levels like that your corals WILL DIE. There isn't enough buffer in the water for proper calcification.

In a nutshell you can use baking soda or washing soda. Baking soda will lower the pH a tad bit but it will rebound back up. Washing soda (baked baking soda) will cause the pH to spike (add it slowly) but the pH will fall back on it's own as the tank normalizes.

If you want you can mix 1 part washing soda to 6 parts baking soda (7 parts total) and will end up with a solution of about 8.2 which is pretty ideal.

Most low nutrient systems will tell you to keep Alk between 7 and 8.5. Other people like to keep alk on the high side in the range of 9 to 11 dKH but pretty much everyone will tell you not to EVER let it get under NSW levels of 7 as the tank will suffer because of it.

You do want to bring the level up by 1 dKH per day (not faster) and get in the habit of testing this each day for a while until you get the levels stable at say 8.5 to 9 then test every couple of days to make sure the levels aren't changing. This of course will require daily additions of some type of buffer. It's FAR better to add buffer daily then every couple of days as keeping Alk stable is SUPER important and adjusting levels more then 1 dKH per day is one of the roughest things you can do to your corals.

Of all the things you need to test for and adjust Alkalinity is the most important items and short of doing daily/bi-daily water changes WILL REQUIRE the addition of some type of buffer daily via KALK, 2 part solution, Calcium Reactor or just using a standalone buffer.

Carlo
Click to expand...

At this moment, Carlo, I am researching, and researching, and researching some more.

Remember, this is the guy that read everything he could get his hands on for almost 2 years before even attempting the first salt water tank, even with more than 25 years of fresh water experience, and 5 years of breeding south american dwarf cichlids.

I do nothing quickly. And don't take this the wrong way cause it aint a jab, but I also don't do anything based on any one or even two people's advice. :) Just something I've learned the hard way.

I am slowly resigning myself to the fact that I may have to dose something to buffer the alkalinity, but for the time being, remember, my quest here is a proactive quest, not a reactive quest. Everything in my tank is doing well and even growing (knock on wood). So at the moment, I will work with water changes and continue my research.

Thanks for the advice so far, though. It is spuring my research, and expanding my understanding of what is going on, which is really what I was looking for in the first place. :)
 
mfisher2112

mfisher2112

DaveK said:
Ok, but how do you know the new test kit is good and the old one bad? It could easily be the other way around, or like the old proverb says "A man with two watches never knows what time it is, use one or three".
Click to expand...

Oh, sooooooo not funny! :eek:

Seriously, now you have me thinking again. ugg... I think I'm going to pick up a salifert test tomorrow if I can find one in the area. The API is readily available (and the closest decent LFS for marine supplies is almost an hour away) so that's why I grabbed that one.

I am also going to pick up a mag test kit based on someone elses' advice. I'd like to see where that number rides right now.

I also want to do a test on newly mixed up water as well. (which between the frag swap and everything else this weekend, I still haven't had a chance to do yet..)

Keep the thoughts coming though, it has been a big help so far!
 
mfisher2112

mfisher2112

Ok, I picked up a salifert nitrate test kit today (no mag kits, noone seems to be able to get them right now).

The trates tested at 50 with the salifert. (did the test twice)

So now I'm really twisted.

API test kit 1 tests 160
API test kit 2 tests 10
Salifert test kit tests 50

HUH???

I also picked up a Pinpoint PH monitor (my wife is going to murder me in my sleep) and the PH is riding at 7.98 pretty steadily.

Alk is 5.4

Calc is 430 to 440

Salinity is 1.025

Temp is 80.3 (at time of testing)

Ammonia and trite both zero

Phosphate no register on the test.

Hopefully the water change will come tomorrow. Wife is sick, so I had to entertain the 2 year old all day (not that its a bad thing, just changed my plans! :) )
 
JohnS_323

JohnS_323

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
mfisher2112 said:
I also picked up a Pinpoint PH monitor (my wife is going to murder me in my sleep)
Click to expand...

LOL! "No baby. You deserved to buy that . . . now just go to sleep"
 
mfisher2112

mfisher2112

Holy crap in a can...

And the plot thickens...

Thanks for that link Kathy.

Now it seems I have several kits that are suspect.

Grrrr...

I have never had this problem before. API test kits have always been reliable, but now I am starting to wonder. Salifert is supposed to be one of the best, but obviously there are issues there.

How the heck do you know which one to trust?

I need to be SURE my parameters are testing accurately before I start doing anything to correct a potentially eroneous number.

Any suggestions?
 
K

KathyC

You're welcome and sorry :(
You can't ever go wrong in doing some water changes...IF you've been doing them all along :)

Some of the MR guys are now using the Lamottes Alk kit and swear by it.
From what Habib at Salifert said --the new alk kits come with the reference solution and a color matching card, FWIW...

Do your reagent bottles have the same batch # as the suspect ones? ..and FWIW, there could be others that they aren't owning up to having issues with.

My way of thinking is unless you KNOW there is something wrong, you shouldn't try & fix it. How do your corals look? If good, keep doing what you've been doing..regular water changes, feeding as usual and take it from there.
Most of all, don't try & change your alk with anything that is a band-aid, it will only plunge again (IF in fact it is low)and that's worse than leaving it be and adjusting through water changes.
Do I keep saying water changes...lol I'm a firm believer in them..weekly.

I saw mention on this thread regarding Magnesium..yes, you should have a kit for that. Simply said - it seems that is the stuff that keeps the Alk & Ca in balance (unless you're dosing different amounts of them. Do get a kit for that and if you do have to add Mg, follow the directions carefully as you can only raise that by 'x' ppm per day without doing damage to your livestock.
If your tank is mostly softies, don't get your oanties in a bunch over the nitrates..a lot of softies love 'em. If your an SPS guy - you're on your own :)

Oh and Matt - be careful when you go to sleep tonight....lol
 
mfisher2112

mfisher2112

KathyC said:
Oh and Matt - be careful when you go to sleep tonight....lol
Click to expand...

Ok, that's just MEAN! LOL! ;D

Thanks, that's kind of what this thread has been about. I haven't done anything. The way it started was a random extensive testing (which I do on occassion, mostly I go by sight and feel, it's left over from my freshwater days).

I got some disturbing numbers. But, everything seems to be doing well, and the tank is primarily softies. So I didn't get too worked up, I just wanted to see what may be the root cause.

I HATE dosing anything in my tanks. Even my fresh water tanks. I even try to steer my customers away from chemicalizing their tank at all.

But, this is a completely different animal than fresh water, and it is what it is.

I am in research mode now, and will look into the lamotte kits and see if I can pick those up.

I can't seem to find it right now, but I would swear I saw a website a few months back where you could ship them a sample of your water and they would do lab grade tests on it for a fee.

At this stage of the game, I am more curious than anything. I won't add anything until I am sure there is a problem, and right now, my corals all seem fine, and my fish are all fine as well. Heck, my zoas are even starting spread, so there can't be too much going on wrong. Although I have noticed a little less coraline than I had before, which is kind of what prompted me to start this battery of testing in the first place. Rocks just don't seem as purple as they were once. It was definitely a gradual shift, but one that was recently noticed.
 
blange3

blange3

mfisher2112 said:
Ok,I am also going to pick up a mag test kit based on someone elses' advice. I'd like to see where that number rides right now.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a very smart someone. ;)

Have you tested the mag yet? Based on you noting a change in coralline growth/appearance, I would look into that. Coralline can be a big consumer of magnesium.

Have you tested the new saltwater as you said? If your batch of salt is out of balance it could perpetuate the problem.

I assume the corals still look good or you would have mentioned that, correct?
 
mfisher2112

mfisher2112

blange3 said:
mfisher2112 said:
Ok,I am also going to pick up a mag test kit based on someone elses' advice. I'd like to see where that number rides right now.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a very smart someone. ;)

Have you tested the mag yet? Based on you noting a change in coralline growth/appearance, I would look into that. Coralline can be a big consumer of magnesium.

Have you tested the new saltwater as you said? If your batch of salt is out of balance it could perpetuate the problem.

I assume the corals still look good or you would have mentioned that, correct?
Click to expand...

;D

No, haven't tested the mag yet. I haven't been able to find a test kit! Apparently, salifert is back ordered everywhere on mag, and because of that, the others are all sold out as well. Gotta do a quick internet search and see what I can find.

I haven't tested the new saltwater yet, it's mixing. I like it to mix with a powerhead for at least a few hours or more to make sure it is completely disolved and settled down before I do anything with it.

All the corals look good. No issues yet. Although I did notice that my alveopora didn't open up all the way today. That's the first one to show any signs of any stress at all. Which tells me I need to step up and do something soon, even if it is a water change.

I won't do any more than about 25%, I don't like to do large water changes unless there is an emergency situation that necessitates it.

The Pinpoint is reading a PH of 8.04 today.
 
mfisher2112

mfisher2112

Ok, tested today at about 11:30.

PH = 7.89 with the pinpoint meter
Alk = 7.4dkH (2.63 meq/L)
Calcium = 420-430
Phos = No detectable ammounts with test kit
Salinity = 1.025
Temp = 80.3
Nitrates = still testing 100+

So it appears that the calcium is falling with each test, the alk is rising and the PH is falling.
Nitrates are coming down, but slowly.

Important note: I've done nothing new, or changed no routines. I still have not gotten the water change done.

However, one of my koralias kicked out on me yesterday (my own fault, I haven't cleaned it in forever) and I put a new koralia #3 in. I noticed immediately that the new pump was putting out a significantly larger amount of flow than the old one, so the old one must have been on its way down for a while. I doubt that this has much to do with anything, but it's the only noticeable change.

I picked up bionic 2 part, but haven't used it yet. I just can't bring myself to dose anything if I don't have to.

I'd like to get that PH number up, and get the alk up a bit more (my understanding is a recomended reading of around 9 dkh).
 
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