My girlfriend just set up an Oceanic Biocube 29 (i will post pictures tonight) so far she has put an Oceanic protein skimmer in, 35lbs of Figi LR and 10lbs of Live sand. I have been hearing different opinions on how soon she can start adding livestock. I know that the tank needs to cycle, but I know with koi and freshwater you cant cycle a system unless there is something for the organisms to eat(ammonia, nitrates) so we stock ponds very slowly to get the bio process up. Would adding something small be ok now or should she wait? The tank as been up and running for 3days now
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How soon can she...
- Thread starter PrettyBoy
- Start date
Some add a small piece of regular ol people food shrimp. There are also several types of "instant start" products on the market but I'm not sure of their effectiveness. Some also use damsel's but they are aggressive and most end up regretting using them for the cycle.
The live rock has already started the cycling process....Keep the skimmer going and clean it often while periodically siphoning out the dead matter that detaches itself from the rock.... After about a week or so, start testing the water parameters as you would for FW.... As I see it, the first animals to be added should be those inverts that make up a cleaning crew, ie. Astrea snails, blue legged hermits, etc.....Check the websites of some online vendors such as Reeftopia and Live Aquaria to get an idea of a typical invert mix. Better yet, contact or visit some of NJRC's Vendors and seek their input.
Dom
Dom
If the "Live Rock" was from an established system (IE my main display tank/system), I would 100% be confident about stuffing a small fish in there right away, as I know that my tank rock is fully cured and ready to carry the load. If it was LFS rock I wouldn't be as confident and would let the tank run its cycle.
My suggestion would be to test ammonia & nitrites and wait to see them get elevated numbers. First the ammonia should rise then as it comes down the nitrites should rise. As the nitrites fall the nitrates should rise. Once the ammonia and nitrites are back to zero you are ready for one hardy type fish.
If you started with well established live rock as Phyl mentioned you might not ever see an ammonia spike but if it's LFS rock you should see it.
You could help the process along with Bio-Spira (very good product) or Seachems Stability (cheap and helps) to seed the bacteria. Neither is needed but they can help speed things along. HOWEVER if the rock has a lot of organisms that are still dying off you really need to wait for this to finish before stocking.
I'd go with a single fish to start out with and not an invert. Inverts are much more (generally speaking) sensitive to water parameters then the typical fish. Once you add the first fish it would be wise to check on the ammonia and nitrites again during the first week to see if they elevate at all. If not no problem but if so make sure they can back to ZERO again before adding the second fish. During this phase the bacteria populations will be growing to match the new food and waste being generated in the tank. Slow and steady is the key to populating the tank especially in the beginning.
I didn't mention anything about nitrates as this value doesn't really matter much during the startup cycle. You can work on getting this number down while/after you have the first fish in there.
Carlo
PS Just a personal opinion but I wouldn't add a cleanup crew at all for the first month or so. I'd wait to see the tank develop first and see what types of algae and whatnot are growing. Then you can match up the critters to the tank. (IE sand sifting, glass cleaning, bubble algae eating, detritus eating, etc). Remember if you add inverts to soon and there isn't stuff for them to eat they will die off and cause you more problems.
Also the reason I normally don't suggest adding any inverts other then cleaner shrimp (after first fish or two) is because they can "mask" what's really going on in the tank and you really want to watch this IMHO to see how the tank develops to know what stage you are in. Much of the startup phase is accompanied by certain outbreaks that come and go on their own and adding an invert package for these can slow the natural process or have you purchase things you don't even need long term.
Again this last part is purely just my opinion.
If you started with well established live rock as Phyl mentioned you might not ever see an ammonia spike but if it's LFS rock you should see it.
You could help the process along with Bio-Spira (very good product) or Seachems Stability (cheap and helps) to seed the bacteria. Neither is needed but they can help speed things along. HOWEVER if the rock has a lot of organisms that are still dying off you really need to wait for this to finish before stocking.
I'd go with a single fish to start out with and not an invert. Inverts are much more (generally speaking) sensitive to water parameters then the typical fish. Once you add the first fish it would be wise to check on the ammonia and nitrites again during the first week to see if they elevate at all. If not no problem but if so make sure they can back to ZERO again before adding the second fish. During this phase the bacteria populations will be growing to match the new food and waste being generated in the tank. Slow and steady is the key to populating the tank especially in the beginning.
I didn't mention anything about nitrates as this value doesn't really matter much during the startup cycle. You can work on getting this number down while/after you have the first fish in there.
Carlo
PS Just a personal opinion but I wouldn't add a cleanup crew at all for the first month or so. I'd wait to see the tank develop first and see what types of algae and whatnot are growing. Then you can match up the critters to the tank. (IE sand sifting, glass cleaning, bubble algae eating, detritus eating, etc). Remember if you add inverts to soon and there isn't stuff for them to eat they will die off and cause you more problems.
Also the reason I normally don't suggest adding any inverts other then cleaner shrimp (after first fish or two) is because they can "mask" what's really going on in the tank and you really want to watch this IMHO to see how the tank develops to know what stage you are in. Much of the startup phase is accompanied by certain outbreaks that come and go on their own and adding an invert package for these can slow the natural process or have you purchase things you don't even need long term.
Again this last part is purely just my opinion.
I used the bio spira stuff in all my new tanks, I was able to add fish the next day.. As long as the rock is clean (no dead materials, seaweed and stuff)you can go that route, after adding it wait 24 hours check your parameters, if they are good then start off with a hardy fish, keep a extra bag handy just in case. Check daily your Ammo & nitrites for the first week, if you get a little reading of either add the extra bag. after a couple of weeks your parameters are holding then you can slowly start adding more livestock. I never had a problem using it and I know others that have had success using it also.
You didn't tell us the lighting. Not real important the type yet but if you have timer already(get one) and the lights are coming on and off then you probably will see algae pretty soon or diatoms. What have you done with the ever included bio-balls and ceramic pieces? I would chuck-em and just set up something to surface skim in your overflow. Check out the hundred different nano mods that people do. It is easier to do some of the things before you have fish. I would start to add some cleanup crew as your blooms happen. I could be wrong but next month's group buy should be well timed for you. I would join NJRC and get in on the action. You will be very happy you did it.
As for lighting I am using the stock lighting minus the led moonlight. Timer kicks both lights on at 7 730, 530-6 the white life goes off and around 9ish the purple light goes out. As for filtration the first thing i did was chuck out the carbon insert and put in a oceanic protein skimmer. The guy at my LFS told her wait about a week and come back and buy a fish and then add the bio spira at the time you add the fish. Following week come back for more livestock. Obviously a lot of peoples thinking is different. Some have said put in a coral first, others say inverts, others say fish...
Yea, you'll always see different opinions on what to add first. It's just like how to start a cycle. Many different ways to get the job done.
Here's the thought pattern behind my line of thought.
If you pickup a hardy type fish it can withstand water parameter fluctuations more then most corals or inverts can. The fish can tolerate high nitrate levels. Alkalinity spikes and high/low calcium levels aren't going to affect it nearly the same as most corals so it's "easier" to start with a fish.
The food and waste produced from the fish make the biological filter(s) stronger with more bacteria. As the tank progresses more fauna starts to develop in the tank. Same goes for algae and other things that will grow naturally (good and bad) in the tank.
By not rushing your critter selection you give the tank a chance to stabilize and you'll get a real sense of how the tank is doing. If you add the little critters to early you can get a "false sense" of how the tank is doing as some algae and things are getting eaten by the critters. This in itself isn't bad but you don't really know how the tank itself is doing on it's own. By not adding the critters right away you can get a better idea how your feeding regimen is based on buildup and algae growths. You can get a good idea by watching your glass, etc... You can adapt your feeding and light schedules, etc...
Then once you really know how the tank is doing you can add the "proper amount" of snails to clean the bottom (start light as you can always add more), snails for the glass, crabs to clean the rocks, etc... In other words my personal opinion is to add the critters based on REAL NEED instead of just so many of this and so many of that. This way there is a proper amount of each based on the "food" that's available in the tank. You won't have as many critters die off on you this way. BTW, this isn't to say you can't start off with a few of each type. Just don't overdue it and let the tank tell you what it needs. This is just hard to do at the onset of the tank setup as it hasn't developed enough yet to really get an idea of what it needs.
Most corals are much harder then fish or critters to keep healthy in a new tank. There isn't the same amount of fauna in the tank as a well established tank. Chances are high that the alk, calcium and mag won't be kept at appropriate levels without fluctuation) at the start (unless you are already an experienced reefer) as this is something that is learned. Since the new tank also goes through different blooms during it's startup cycle there is a lot changing the first few months and this all plays into making corals a bit harder then say after the first 3 months.
So taking ALL this into consideration I like to go with a couple of fish first, then some critters and then a coral or two. Obviously by watching the tank and it's progression you'll know when to add more critters based on need. You can add more fish slowly over time based on need/want (try to think ahead and select a fish like a foxface lo that will also help with algaes). Generally speaking I think the longer the tank is up the better the chemistry is and the tighter the parameters are kept (at least I hope)
This makes keeping corals easier so I like to concentrate picking up most of the corals later in selection process as opposed to earlier as they probably stand a better chance this way.
These are "loose suggestions at best" and anyone who has previous experience and knows what they are doing can work around them, usually without difficulty as they know what to watch for and what they are doing.
Carlo
Here's the thought pattern behind my line of thought.
If you pickup a hardy type fish it can withstand water parameter fluctuations more then most corals or inverts can. The fish can tolerate high nitrate levels. Alkalinity spikes and high/low calcium levels aren't going to affect it nearly the same as most corals so it's "easier" to start with a fish.
The food and waste produced from the fish make the biological filter(s) stronger with more bacteria. As the tank progresses more fauna starts to develop in the tank. Same goes for algae and other things that will grow naturally (good and bad) in the tank.
By not rushing your critter selection you give the tank a chance to stabilize and you'll get a real sense of how the tank is doing. If you add the little critters to early you can get a "false sense" of how the tank is doing as some algae and things are getting eaten by the critters. This in itself isn't bad but you don't really know how the tank itself is doing on it's own. By not adding the critters right away you can get a better idea how your feeding regimen is based on buildup and algae growths. You can get a good idea by watching your glass, etc... You can adapt your feeding and light schedules, etc...
Then once you really know how the tank is doing you can add the "proper amount" of snails to clean the bottom (start light as you can always add more), snails for the glass, crabs to clean the rocks, etc... In other words my personal opinion is to add the critters based on REAL NEED instead of just so many of this and so many of that. This way there is a proper amount of each based on the "food" that's available in the tank. You won't have as many critters die off on you this way. BTW, this isn't to say you can't start off with a few of each type. Just don't overdue it and let the tank tell you what it needs. This is just hard to do at the onset of the tank setup as it hasn't developed enough yet to really get an idea of what it needs.
Most corals are much harder then fish or critters to keep healthy in a new tank. There isn't the same amount of fauna in the tank as a well established tank. Chances are high that the alk, calcium and mag won't be kept at appropriate levels without fluctuation) at the start (unless you are already an experienced reefer) as this is something that is learned. Since the new tank also goes through different blooms during it's startup cycle there is a lot changing the first few months and this all plays into making corals a bit harder then say after the first 3 months.
So taking ALL this into consideration I like to go with a couple of fish first, then some critters and then a coral or two. Obviously by watching the tank and it's progression you'll know when to add more critters based on need. You can add more fish slowly over time based on need/want (try to think ahead and select a fish like a foxface lo that will also help with algaes). Generally speaking I think the longer the tank is up the better the chemistry is and the tighter the parameters are kept (at least I hope)
This makes keeping corals easier so I like to concentrate picking up most of the corals later in selection process as opposed to earlier as they probably stand a better chance this way.These are "loose suggestions at best" and anyone who has previous experience and knows what they are doing can work around them, usually without difficulty as they know what to watch for and what they are doing.
Carlo
What Carlo said ;D.
I would get this book...where you get it is up to you.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4538+16813&pcatid=16813
I got it during a group buy.
My only other thought is in picking fish...with a Nano you have a very limited amount of space. I think 2-3 fish personally, in fresh water they say 1 inch per gallon but in salt have heard 1 inch per 5. That being said your selection of fish is pretty important.
You want to add the least aggressive fish first. And if you make a selection like me you are stuck with a devil :'( , and you really limit what you can put in. I wouldn't suggest a pseudocromis by the way.
If it works out for you and the CUC to get later in March I think the group buy would be pretty helpful.
I would get this book...where you get it is up to you.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4538+16813&pcatid=16813
I got it during a group buy.
My only other thought is in picking fish...with a Nano you have a very limited amount of space. I think 2-3 fish personally, in fresh water they say 1 inch per gallon but in salt have heard 1 inch per 5. That being said your selection of fish is pretty important.
You want to add the least aggressive fish first. And if you make a selection like me you are stuck with a devil :'( , and you really limit what you can put in. I wouldn't suggest a pseudocromis by the way.
If it works out for you and the CUC to get later in March I think the group buy would be pretty helpful.
well she added 6 tiny hermit crags and 3 tiny snails 3days ago along with some bio spira. I just checked her readings and everything is all within range, only thing is calcium is a tad bit low at 350ppm so I added some more salt water I had mixed and will check on it later to see if I need to add a calcium solution to the water. The critters have be doing great. The past few days I have noticed a brown algae starting to grow on the tops of the rocks. What would be the next step you guys would take as for live stock?
first of all...it's march 2nd - and you said you'd post pics feb 26! ;D
Anyways - depending on the snails you purchased already - you may want to consider an invert to help keep the sand turned/clean.
I agree with Jrwohler...picking up a book may also fill in the gaps that may not be readily found on this board. Good luck!
Anyways - depending on the snails you purchased already - you may want to consider an invert to help keep the sand turned/clean.
I agree with Jrwohler...picking up a book may also fill in the gaps that may not be readily found on this board. Good luck!
i bought some book the LFS owner told me to read, ive read a lot of it so far and its more about what kind of reefs you can build. Sorry about the pictures ive been real busy with doing my room and building my in wall 180, now shes got me helping her on her nano... ill get some tonight though