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Thinking of going skimmerless...

A

Absinthe

Let me run something by the group.

72g bowfront
60lbs live rock
60lbs sand

Stocking plans: Picasso trigger, inverts (for cleaning and for food)

I am trying to decide if I should stick with my Remora Skimmer or switch to a Magnum HOT canister filter.

Here are my pros/cons.

Skimmer Pros: effective protein matter removal, easy maintanance
Skimmer Cons: loud (would only run at night), eyesore on tank (more than canister)

Canister Pros: can run media, quiet, directional water outlet = more flow
Canister Cons: more maintenance, its not a protein skimmer

I have never run a tank skimmerless without a refugium.

Thoughts?
 
C

Carlo

Absinthe,

The normal "rule of thumb" is 1.5-2 lbs of live rock per gallon of water. Ignore any rules of thumb for sand and just use what looks good to you. In your particular case you are a little less then 1 lb of rock per gallon of water. Ideally if you want to go skimmerless you should try for about 2.5-3 lbs of rock per gallon of water. By having a lot more rock you will have more room for the bacteria that breaks down nitrates.

Rock is expensive so take that advice as much as the wallet allows. You can always add some here and there but it would be a really good idea to try and get to the 1.5 lb/gallon mark.

The Picasso is going to be a pooping machine. Between this and the amount of food you add to the tank it's going to be tough. The main problem you are going to see is the build up of nitrates. Elevated nitrates up to about 50ppm will not bother most fish. However this would be detrimental to most types of corals. 10ppm of nitrates is the upper level most people would want for corals (sps even lower) but you can sometimes get away with up to 20ppm nitrates and still have healthy softies and lps if everything else is "spot on". Again lower is definitely better.

So the ideal would be to have as much natural filtration (live rock) as possible and then add mechanical filtration to augment it. The canister filter is probably going to be the best all around type of filter you can use in this situation IMHO.

Because it will be largely responsible for all filtration in your current tank you will need to be deligent in keeping it clean. Without a protein skimmer you will almost surely need to keep the sponges in the canister filter as they will be the main source of getting the organics out of the tank. If you pick up a couple extra sets of sponges for the filter it will make the job a little easier since you can pull the sponges out and replace them with clean ones. Then clean several sets of sponges at the same time (less overall hassle).

You of course can help keep nitrates down by doing large water changes.

The nitrate and phosphorous test kits will probably be the best determining source to let you know if corals are possible in the tank if you even plan on any.

Have you given any thought to what type of media you are going to run in the canister?

Carlo
 
blange3

blange3

What Carlo said! ;D

Basically FOWLR=yes, go skimmerless REEF= no, add a skimmer.

But I would guess your focus is fish. If you trade rock for swimming room you need to step up the maintainence and water change schedules.
 
A

Absinthe

Thanks for the answers so far.

- Tank will be FOWLR
- Only corals might be xenia, mushrooms, gsp if any at all
- Moderate stocking (only the one fish)

My thoughts are along the same line as you Carlo. The canister might be better for nitrogenous removal.

I was planning on having the foam blocks in there as well as different media

I would likely use Carbon and Renew (phosphate and nitrite binding media)

I dont want to add more live rock because I want the open swimming room that I have now. Plus, the rock I have is very light carribean rock. 1lb of this is comparable to 1.5lbs of figi, just because of the difference in density and surface area.



Any other thoughts?
 
B

Brian

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
I have a 90 gallon Softie tank. I am skimmerless. But do grow macro in the sump (not a fuge). I use a Fluval that has carbon and sponges in it and I use a Turbo Twist 18w UV.

I dont have a huge bioload (3 smaller wrasses and a flamehawk). Everything seems to do well in there so far.

my .02!
 
T

TNT_Tile

I've had a 125 that has been skimmerless for over two years now. When I had a skimmer I don't think it did much so I got rid of it. If money allowed I would have the biggest I could afford. I keep frogspawn, mushrooms, and ricordia's but havn't tried anything diffulcult. Nitrates stay mostly in check between 5 and 10 ppm. Everything else is perfect. I've added so much live rock, that I don't think I have room for any more in the tank. Best of luck and I'm sure that the experts (people with more posts, or actual knowledge) are right.
 
C

Carlo

You have good rock. Good light Caribbean rock is probably more on the order of 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 better in it's ability to host internal bacteria compared to everyday Fuji rock you usually see in stores. Obviously more rock is always better (from a bacteria hosting standpoint) but that would go against what you are trying to do with the open swimming areas.

Unless you already have Renew I wouldn't run out a purchase it yet. For the most part it will do what carbon does plus remove phosphates. If you don't have a phosphate problem then you can just run carbon instead. It's not particular stellar at removing phosphates and there are better products to do that if needed.

Here are a couple of other products/ideas you could look into or keep in mind for the future. These are sort of "best of the best" type products and work well in canister filters (since that you're thinking of going with). If you were to pick only 1 of them I'd suggest Matrix as it's really an extention of the liverock principle and is biological and not chemical in nature.

Matrix - http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Matrix.html
Matrix is a biological product and not a chemical product. It's a good choice for removal of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates. Use 100 mL of Matrix for each 10 gallons of water in the system. What I like about this product is that it is very porous and allows aerobic & anaerobic bacteria to grow in/on it. This is the same thing that live rock does. If you choose to use this product put it at the bottom of the canister and when cleaning the canister leave this product submerged in water (you don't need to clean it) in the canister to not disturb the bacteria. I used to recommend Siporax but find I like Matrix better. It's a lot cheaper, does the same thing and has a better shape to the media which keeps any organics from getting it dirty. Just as with your liverock it takes time for the anaerobic bacteria to develop in it so you want to make sure not to expose it to O2.

Purigen - http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Purigen.html
From website: Purigen is a premium synthetic adsorbent that is unlike any other filtration product. It is not a mixture of ion exchangers or adsorbents, but a unique macro-porous synthetic polymer that removes soluble and insoluble impurities from water at a rate and capacity that exceeds all others by over 500%. Purigen controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds. Purigen’s impact on trace elements is minimal. It significantly raises redox. It polishes water to unparalleled clarity. Purigen darkens progressively as it exhausts, and is easily renewed by treating with bleach.

Purigen is an great product. You could use this instead of carbon or in addition to carbon. It's gentler on the system then carbon and removes a lot more stuff then carbon.

PURA Filtration Pads are another great product. This is the same as PURA Complete but in a Pad format. You can purchase it in different sizes and cut it to fit wet/drys, canister filters or pretty much any type of filter that has a place to put a sponge. Depending on the configuration of the sponges in the unit you could replace the sponges with this product. It removes solids, organics, ammonia, phosphates, medications, lead, copper, silicates. This product has the same phosphate remover in it as PURA PhosLock. So if you get a little phosphates the PAD will remove them but if you get a lot of phosphates then PhosLock would be a better choice. See below. If you do happened to use this in addition or replacement of sponges clean these in RO/DI water only. I've found if you clean them in tap water it absorbs elements from the tap water and shortens it's life. It works that good!

PURA Phoslock
From a product description: All PURA products are formulated with Beta-GFH (Beta Ferric Oxide Hydroxide). Hydrated Beta-GFH is vastly superior to white colored Alumina based phosphate removers and greatly superior to numerous Alpha-Ferric Hydroxides sold in dry form. PURA PhosLock removes 45% more phosphates than Alumina media, and 20% more than Alpha-Ferric Hydroxides. Unlike Alumina, PhosLock never leaches phosphates back to the aquarium. Unlike competing Alpha-Ferric Hydroxides, PhosLock never disintegrates and never turns soft and muddy in aquarium water.

I've tried numerous phosphate binding products on a system last year that had very high phosphates. Of all the products I tried/tested this was the only one that didn't leach phosphates back into the water when it was saturated. There is only one product I've ever found to work better then this for phosphate removal but it's a liquid and not really a "preventive" product and you wouldn't run it in a canister.

Since you already have the skimmer how come you don't want to run it? Or why not run it in addition to a canister filter even if only at night like you mentioned previously?

Carlo
 
A

Absinthe

Thanks for the detailed write up carlo. Great overview!

I dont have room for both the skimmer AND the canister

I dont mind running the skimmer at night, but I thought a canister running 24/7 might be more efficient than a skimmer running at night when no one is watching TV.
 
D

DaveK

Absinthe said:
Let me run something by the group
...
Stocking plans: Picasso trigger, inverts (for cleaning and for food)

I am trying to decide if I should stick with my Remora Skimmer or switch to a Magnum HOT canister filter.
...
Thoughts?

{from another post)

I dont have room for both the skimmer AND the canister
Click to expand...

Here is the issue. You want to have a large fish that is aptly described as "pooping machine" by cayars. While triggers are tough hardy fish, you still want to maintain the best quality water conditions.

In my opinion, you need both the skimmer and and the canister, preferably with carbon or similar media. While you can sort of try and get by with one or the other, you are not doing yourself or the fish any favors.

Also, while picasso trigger is docile compared to some of the other triggers, it's still going to go after anything else it doesn't. It's also going to eat anything it likes in the LR. They can clean that off of most other life, except bacteria. Generally feeding problems on a trigger are limited to making sure you are keeping up with it's appetite, and this is why they create a lot of waste products.

You might be better off choosing a different fish or croup of fish to keep.
 
A

Absinthe

I know the trigger will be a mess, but both my fiancee and I pretty much have our hearts set on that fish.

Im still debating but after some thinking I think I am going to go with the skimmer and just run it on a schedule.

The only time its really annoying is when we are trying to watch television. Say, 5pm to midnight...those would be the most common hours. Perhaps on weekend or when there is a football game on as well.

But it has been running and the only difference is bumping the volume on the tv 5-6 clicks when the skimmer is running.

So I think the skimmer will stay. Its a bit easier to deal with. No media to change, only empty and rinse the cup every few days. I will also be getting a preskimmer to hide the pump and wire so the trigger doesnt zap himself. All the other wires in the tank will be covered with 1/2" black vinyl tubing.

I think running the skimmer from midnight to early afternoon (12-18 hours) daily will be sufficient to clean the tank.

The trigger will be the only fish and it will be on a moderate feeding schedule. The tank will be high flow to keep particles moving...1600gph.

What do people think about having a small damsel (in the tank first) in there as well to help clean up the little bit of food that gets past the trigger. Or will the trigger likely eat all that in his daily scavenging of the tank? Maybe no damsel would be better. (thinking out loud here)

So as it stands I think the skimmer will stay, despite the noise. I dont see the canister adding a whole lot other than some ability to hold media. And if I am less than vigilant on the maintenance of the canister it will be working against me...I dont want that to happen.

I checked my water the other day and my params are all much lower than in the past. Just a few scrubbings, one water change and changing the foam filter on the maxijett (which collects all the gunk) have helped immensely.

I am due for one more big scrubbing and water change this coming week and then the clean up crew goes in...later next week most likely. Give them some time to settle in before the fish...probably 2 weeks from now.

So skimmer, Koralia #3 x 2, heater and thats it. High flow, skimmer (with skimmer box) and water changes as necessary.

Triggers are pretty hearty fish and quite forgiving. In my reading I have found that some people even use them to cycle tanks because of their resiliency. I dont plan on letting my water get THAT bad, but its nice to know that I dont have to check the water daily.

And as far as feeding, I get 2 different answers. So I need to research more on that.

Some people say feed triggers a good amount daily and others have said feed them large once/week and then a small amount 2 times per week (3 feedings/week).

I need to find out a bit more about that.

Thanks again for all the help. I will keep everyone updated. I plan on restarting my tank thread with new pics and updated info!


Ab
 
L

lithivm

I have a 72G Bow and havent been running my skimmer for over 6 months. I keep fish liverock and three colonies of zoas, torch coral, condi anemone, leather and some other type of leather.... they zoas have grown and the rest seems happy.

I do have a sump with Macro from ReefDrumzs
 
D

DaveK

Absinthe said:
...
I think running the skimmer from midnight to early afternoon (12-18 hours) daily will be sufficient to clean the tank.
...
What do people think about having a small damsel (in the tank first) in there as well to help clean up the little bit of food that gets past the trigger. Or will the trigger likely eat all that in his daily scavenging of the tank? Maybe no damsel would be better. (thinking out loud here)
...
Click to expand...

I would run the skimmer 24 hours a day. If you don't, you have a pocket of stagnant water that can go bad on you, and you are dumping that right back into the system. Ever dump out a Remora skimmer? There is quit a bit of water in there. In addition, skimmers build up material on their insides, and letting that dry out can make the skimmer less effective. There may be some ways to keep the noise down, other than turning it off.

Actually, as long as you don't overcrowd the tank, a few damsels might be good tank mates for a trigger. I'd be inclined to use Dascyllus species, like a striped or three spot, but that's just me. Just keep an eye on them to make sure they are not bothering the trigger. The trigger can take care of itself, but it's an awkward swimmer. The fast damsels might nip at it.
 
panmanmatt

panmanmatt

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Remove the collection cup and place a piece of filter floss on top of the intake tube/nozzle and then replace the collection cup. I did thisd whith mine and was surpirsed how much quieter it got. I have mine in the living room and you can hardly hear the tank running. Even guests comment on how loud the tank isn't.
 
C

Carlo

Going a long with DaveK's idea. You could try yellow tail damsels with the trigger. They are probably the least aggressive of the true damsels. Just an idea.

Matt, that sounds pretty cool. Without the filter floss is the noise coming from the pump or from the water circulating inside the skimmer?

Any chance of snapping a pic of the filter floss in the skimmer? I'm trying to picture it but can't quite figure exactly where you have the floss.

Thanks,
Carlo
 
A

Absinthe

The noise is from the water-jet action that takes place in the first part of the skimmer.

Thats how remoras/urchins produce bubbles, by blasting the water through a tiny hole. Needless to say, this causes some sound!

The filter foam will simply go around and above the spray nozzle.
 
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