what's the big difference??

[RevClyburn]

Hey everyone,

been thinking about changing my filteration a little bit, starting with a sump. I am currently using a wet/dry filter, I've had it since I got addicted to this hobby, say about 10+ years ago. It was a big thing back then, if you had a w/d filter, with all the filter media and a skimmer. But, now days, everyone seems to have switched to a sump, with a refugium and all sorts of other gadgets. I want to add one to my tank, so I can make my tank run as optimum as possible.

But, really, what is the big difference, both are filters, outside of the refugium, which you can make from a hang on back filter (aquaclear). What is the biggest benefit to having a sump? Also, how easy is it to make a sump?

rev

 

[IrradiatedReef]

Well, the big negative to a wet/dry is that they are nitrate machines unless you clean the bio-material often. Everyone I know who have switched from wet/dry to a sump/ref have seen big drops in their nitrates.

A sump is basicly a tank under your tank. It uses live rock and live sand as your filter media which is a more natural filtering and more efficient. A sump is also a larger volume then a regular wet/dry. Say you have a 90 gal. tank with a 30 gal. sump, your tank is unofficially 120 gal. This extra water thins your polutants giving you a better water quality. I always use a refuge to add the filtering abilities of plants/beneficial algae. It also houses benificial micro-organisms that would normally be eaten/destroyed in the main part of the tank. Side benifit of this is that the extra organisms will spill over into your return and add a little natural feeding to your tank.

It is not hard at all to make a sump. You can use a rubbermaid storage container for something basic or go all out and make a custom one out of acrylic with chambers for your skimmer, refuge, bubble traps, etc. In the middle there would be using a smaller <20-40 gal.> glass fish tank and add the bubble traps and zones with glass you can buy from and glass store.

Hope this helps a bit. Sumps IMO are the way to go.

 

[RevClyburn]

I understand the issues with nitrates, but I don't have that problem with my W/D.
It's not the notrate magnet everyone cliams. I remember when we had DLS material in w/d's and that would definitley increase nitrate levels. But, that wnet out with the bump, lol. I have live rock in my w/d and I try to do a thorough cleaning when I do water changes. So I guess that keeps my nitrates at bey. Anyway, I wish I could install a sump right now, but with my stand, it will be work. Will see how I can do it.

I agree on the extra bio life, from the refugium, but out side of that, what other benefits are there to a sump other than that and water volume, movement?

revclyburn

 

[mfisher2112]

Rev, seems to me your current WD is functioning as a form of a sump at this point because it has live rock in it and not the bio-material.

Essentially, from my understanding, the extra water volume, the possibility of incorporating a refugium, additional filtration with more live rock/live sand, and a place to hide unsightly "devices" such as heaters etc is the primary function.

I run a 55 gallon tank, with a 20 gallon long as a DIY sump. Essentially, I am running probably about 65 gallons of water volume. Plus, it lets me keep extra rock rubble for pod export and additional filtration, gives me a place to run my skimmer, heater, phosban reactor and carbon without having to incorporate them into my display.

Like I said, your WD is probably closer to a sump than a WD at this point.

As for ease, mine was a matter of siliconing in 4 pieces of glass I had cut at a glass shop into a 20 gallon long tank, putting together some pretty straight forward plumbing, and adding the equipment (skimmer, heater, etc). If your tank isn't drilled, you'll need a hang on back overflow, but other than that, it wasn't difficult at all.

This is a picture of it before I got everything settled in and running (ignore the wiring, like I said, I was setting everything up, it doesn't look like that now! )

http://www.kemmcosolutions.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=3840

 

[RevClyburn]

mfisher,

you are probably right, but this has been the way I've ran it for years. I'm a old skool reefer, Jaubert worked for me and I still use it to a larger degree. Only difference may be I use 2 skimmers instead of one. I'm going to try a sump,
as my w/d can't incorporate everything I want. So, hey, when my wife is looking, going to get me a 38g from kmart/Walmart and slide it under my tank, which is going to take a little work too, lol

rev

 

[mfisher2112]

LOL! Definitely more options with a sump in my opinion.

Check out your local glass houses for the baffels. I was able to get my local glass house to cut the panes for me to size and even round over the top edge to allow for better water flow. See if they will "polish" the edges for you after the cut.

Measure from inside edge to inside edge. A little off to the short side won't matter because the silicone will fill it in and keep it solid. If it is too long by even a 1/16" you could have trouble getting it in square.

Silicone won't bond acrylic to glass, that's why I went with the glass baffels. Only cost me 12 bucks, and like I said, they cut them to my measurements and even polished the edge for me. Not only does that allow the water to flow over smoother, but it helps minimize the chance you'll cut yourself working with it (I'm a papercut magnet, and even with the smooth edges I still managed to cut myself once, so I can't imagine how much I would have bled had the edges not been smoothed!)

Also, another tip, use a sharpie on the outside of the glass to mark your placement so you can get the baffels in straight. The sharpie rubs right off the glass when you are done. I measured from left to right on both the front and back of the 20 gallon tank at the top and bottom of where I wanted the baffel, then drew a straight line from top to bottom. This gave me a visible edge to line the glass baffel up at both the front and back of the tank to keep the baffel as square as possible.

Lowes sells silicone that specifically says Aquarium Silicone, and it's only about $3.00 for a tube. One tube should be more than enough, and you won't have to worry about "does this silicone have something bad in it". The price difference between that and something like GE silicone is not worth saving a few pennies in my opinion.

All told, I think my actual sump only cost me about $20.

 

[RevClyburn]

MFisher

do you any pics, maybe I can make something over the weekend.

rev

 

[mfisher2112]

I have a few up on my gallery website:

http://www.kemmcosolutions.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=3521&g2_page=5

I could probably get a few more for you tomorrow after work.

It's pretty straight forward, only took me a few minutes to actually assemble. Longest time was planning it out. I think I have a jpg of the final plan around here somewhere. Lemme see if I can dig that up.

(And don't mind the mess, believe me, my wife didn't let the room stay that torn up for long! LOL!)

 

[mfisher2112]

Ok, this is the final drawing that I used:

Here are a couple of the finished product before plumbing and water (and of course before the upgraded skimmer):

 

[RichT]

I'm sure they work OK but the bubble baffles in the sketch are opposite of the sumps I've built and seen. The object of the first baffle is to force any bubbles that are low to the surface. The second baffle is supposed to stop the bubbles that are high and those that were just forced to the top by the first baffle. The third baffle, which is technically optional, is suppose to force any bubbles that were drawn down under the second baffle back to the surface and away from the pump intake. One thing that is important to remember is to not make the baffles too close as it will speed the water through the baffles bringing the bubbles with it.
As long as the bubbles aren't too bad the configuration shown in the sketch will work as I'm sure it is.

 

[Carlo]

A wet/dry is a type of sump. If you take out the bio balls and sponges you have a regular sump at that point. However it really depends on the design of the wet/dry as to how usefull it will perform for you to store equipment and such. Sometimes it's just easier to remove the wetdry and start over with a fish tank and baffles.

For most people the ideal use of a sump is to:
Add more water volume
place to add additional oxidation to the tank via waterfall effects
place to put the skimmer(s)
place to put reactors like the phosbans
place to add heaters
place to put top-off equipment
place to put digital meter probes
In a nut shell it allows you to have a cleaner looking display tank and a place to hide all the equipment.

Some people place liverock and sand in the sump. I myself have moved away from this practice and instead have added a couple of small pumps (ie maxijets) into my sump to keep everything stirred up so nothing settles on the bottom and gives the skimmer a better workout. I figured it's one less place to have organics build up. My sump is very crowded and it's difficult to clean properly. Now with the circulation pumps in there she stays nice and clean and maintenance free. I do use a seperate refugium which I have live rock, macro algea and a few snails in with no sand. Oh I also have a 3" hermit crab in there since he just got banished from the display tank after eating 3 skunk cleaner shrimp and a 5" Ultra Maxima Clam. I "knew better" but the kids "had to have him"!

 

[mfisher2112]

I'm sure they work OK but the bubble baffles in the sketch are opposite of the sumps I've built and seen. The object of the first baffle is to force any bubbles that are low to the surface. The second baffle is supposed to stop the bubbles that are high and those that were just forced to the top by the first baffle. The third baffle, which is technically optional, is suppose to force any bubbles that were drawn down under the second baffle back to the surface and away from the pump intake. One thing that is important to remember is to not make the baffles too close as it will speed the water through the baffles bringing the bubbles with it.
As long as the bubbles aren't too bad the configuration shown in the sketch will work as I'm sure it is.

Hey Rich, yeah, I'm beginning to think you are right. I have developed a micro-bubble problem, but only recently. I'd say in the past 10 days or so. Up until now, it has worked beautifully.

Couple of things I wish I had done differently. I originally had the baffels reversed, but had several people on reefcentral (before I even knew about this club) recomend the current configuration, so I went with it.

The other thing is I would have made the baffels a bit higher. I was paranoid about overflow should the power go out, but since my return outlets are right at the surface, if the power goes out, the siphon breaks immediately, so I could have raised them up a bit and gotta bit more volume for the refugium and the return chamber.

I also wish I had used the 30 gallon long instead of the 20 gallon long. But, these are all things I can correct when I get the upgraded tank going next month.