Calcium and Alalinity Question

[Singlemalt]

As I research ways to be sure my tank parameters are up to par I've come up with a question (yes another one!!) At this point I've decided to use either a Kalwasser or Two Part Solution drip. From what I've read I should replace ALL of the water that evaporates from my system with the dripped solution. I'm still figuring out how much that will be but it looks like I'll have to top off about 3 gallons per day. That seems like a lot of mixing and dripping.

I have a 120 gallon tank that drains to a 55 gallon sump in the basement and a 40 gallon fuge. The total volume of water is about 200 gallons. I think most of the evaporation is due to the water draining all the way downstairs. If I'm right about that then a similar system with a sump under the stand would have less evaporation and require less of a drip to replace the water.

Obviously the goal is to get the water chemistry right how could two systems with the same water volume require different amounts of the dripped solution??

Would it be possible for me to drip less and use an auto topoff system to replace the rest of the evaporated water?

Thanks
Lou

 

[reeferwanabe]

do you have a cover on your tank? I don't and get a lot of evaporation but I really like the no cover look plus temp. stays down with the halides on.

 

[Carlo]

You don't have to replace the evap water with a completely mixed solution. You can just use RO/DI water and have the kalk or 2 part seperate. For example if you go the 2 part route and find you need to add 10ml of each (example only) you could setup 2 dosing pumps. Ideally you won't want to dose both parts at the same time but stagger them with a timer. If you go the Kalk/Limewater route you will want to control it with a pH controller so you don't get too much in at one time.

Carlo

 

[ken6217]

If money is not an issue, just get a calcium reactor, set it, and forget it. To ME, the 2 part solution and kalk is a PITA.
Ken

 

[Carlo]

Yea but calcium reactors come with their own set of issues too. You have to stay more on top of water changes or you get ionic imbalances. Calcium reactors are also a bad choice if your tank runs on the low side pH wise. Even if you go with a calcium reactor a kalk reactor is still a good addition to the tank because it helps keep the pH stable and not to low.

Keep in mind you want your pH to stay around 8.4 with 8.2-8.4 being a good night/day range. Some people have their pH dip as far down as 7.8 but it's not healthy or optimal for corals and encourages nuisance algae where higher pH "fights off" these types of algae better.

Kalk is the all around best choice overall as there really aren't any negatives to using it when done properly. It will keep you pH in the sweet spot. It doesn't cause imbalances in the water, it's calcium and alkalinity balanced and it helps to precipitate phosphates out of the water which is a nice bonus.

IMHO a kalk reactor should be the first mechanism used when 2 parts get to be to expensive. Then supplement the kalk reactor with a 2 part or with a calcium reactor but don't replace the kalk reactor with the calcium reactor.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Carlo

PS yes I know lots of people only use a calcium reactor but it's not the best choice alone IMHO.

 

[Singlemalt]

I have egg crate on the tank and a canopy over that. I was thinking about a calcuim reactor but didn't want to spend the $$ right now.

 

[ken6217]

Yea but calcium reactors come with their own set of issues too. You have to stay more on top of water changes or you get ionic imbalances. Calcium reactors are also a bad choice if your tank runs on the low side pH wise. Even if you go with a calcium reactor a kalk reactor is still a good addition to the tank because it helps keep the pH stable and not to low.

Keep in mind you want your pH to stay around 8.4 with 8.2-8.4 being a good night/day range. Some people have their pH dip as far down as 7.8 but it's not healthy or optimal for corals and encourages nuisance algae where higher pH "fights off" these types of algae better.

Kalk is the all around best choice overall as there really aren't any negatives to using it when done properly. It will keep you pH in the sweet spot. It doesn't cause imbalances in the water, it's calcium and alkalinity balanced and it helps to precipitate phosphates out of the water which is a nice bonus.

IMHO a kalk reactor should be the first mechanism used when 2 parts get to be to expensive. Then supplement the kalk reactor with a 2 part or with a calcium reactor but don't replace the kalk reactor with the calcium reactor.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Carlo

PS yes I know lots of people only use a calcium reactor but it's not the best choice alone IMHO.

I guess you are using the wrong Ca reactor. I have had an MTC Pro-Cal for over a year and my alk has been between 10-12 dkh an never has my PH dropped below 8.0. My water changes are done every couple of weeks. I do a 5% water change. If you think this that "my" system doesn't work for ME, please come over and take a look at my SPS that grow like weeds, or ask Jazzsam for his opinion of my tank.

By the way, it is not mandatory that your PH stay around 8.4. Let me know how many people in the hobby have a PH of 8.4, especially if you are not using Kalk.
Ken

 

[jazzsam]

I guess you are using the wrong Ca reactor. I have had an MTC Pro-Cal for over a year and my alk has been between 10-12 dkh an never has my PH dropped below 8.0. My water changes are done every couple of weeks. I do a 5% water change. If you think this that "my" system doesn't work for ME, please come over and take a look at my SPS that grow like weeds, or ask Jazzsam for his opinion of my tank.

By the way, it is not mandatory that your PH stay around 8.4. Let me know how many people in the hobby have a PH of 8.4, especially if you are not using Kalk.
Ken

I saw his tank 6 months ago and then just a few weeks ago and you would be amazed on how fast his SPS grew! They are actually growing out of the water now.

 

[Singlemalt]

Thanks for the adivce Carlo. I'm going to try the drip with an auto topoff for the rest of the water.

 

[ken6217]

Yea but calcium reactors come with their own set of issues too. You have to stay more on top of water changes or you get ionic imbalances.

Carlo,
I see you are a sponsor. Please tell me what sponsor you are. You have an agenda that is not consistent with this type of forum. You pass off bad information, if not total BS for some reason that I am not sure of. If it is not this, then you are poorly informed. I doubt it is the latter, which is a shame. People come to this forum to learn and to ask questions. It would really be a pity if they come away with what you say as gospel. This isn't the first thread where I have seen this. I would love to take you to task on some of the things that you have said but I have a life and cann't spend the time typing on a computer.
Ken

 

[hayabusa2003]

hoping not to hijack this thread, but I've been thinking about adding a calcium reactor but been holding off until I build a Kalk stirrer to complement it. Curious about Ken's setup....you don't add any kalkwasser at all? I'm relatively new to this hobby, but I read that the effluent coming from a calcium reactor typically has a Ph value of 6.5ish. My concern was adding the calcium reactor without kalkwasser (Ph of 12ish)to offset it and a Ph monitor/controller to shutoff both systems if my Ph drops/rises too low/high. I thought all 3 components were needed to safely setup a calcium reactor...none of which are cheap

Just looking for how others have it setup before I commit to anything. thx!

 

[Carlo]

Yea but calcium reactors come with their own set of issues too. You have to stay more on top of water changes or you get ionic imbalances.

Carlo,
I see you are a sponsor. Please tell me what sponsor you are. You have an agenda that is not consistent with this type of forum. You pass off bad information, if not total BS for some reason that I am not sure of. If it is not this, then you are poorly informed. I doubt it is the latter, which is a shame. People come to this forum to learn and to ask questions. It would really be a pity if they come away with what you say as gospel. This isn't the first thread where I have seen this. I would love to take you to task on some of the things that you have said but I have a life and can't spend the time typing on a computer.
Ken

Hello Ken,

I've been around a lot longer as a user then as a sponsor (only last month or so). I think many people would tell you I don't have any agenda except to help people. I agree sometimes my posts come off as "gospel" but it's not by intention. I've been criticized in the past for writing to much (long) info so I try and keep it tighter now. Unfortunately this has a down side in that only stronger points come across without as much "in my opinion" or other subtle things that make for lighter reading at times. If you want to know what sponsor I'm affiliated with just PM me or check a couple of the vendors forums here and you'll quickly find me.

I'd welcome you anytime to call me out on any bad information you think I've given. I'm human like everyone else and make mistakes but feel pretty comfortable with 99.9% of the info I've given. Water chemistry and devices of all sorts that control or manipulate it is one of my strong points and I do consulting for big public aquariums in this field.

I don't want this to come off as a challenge but if you have any issues with any of my posts or information please don't hesitate to send me a PM with your comments/questions and I'd be happy to explain why I posted what I did and why (reason behind solution given). Maybe with an explanation some things you might question would become clearer.

I think my previous post had enough information in it to suggest why a calcium reactor isn't the best 1st choice for alk/ca boosting for most people. I'd be happy to elaborate on it in depth if you or anyone else wants to know why. Randy Homes Farley and others have some articles concerning these issues that I could dig up and post links to that may answer these questions. If you are up for an in depth read let me know and I'll find a few for you. Maybe after reading a couple of them you'll understand what I'm getting at without mentioning specifics and why I recommend Kalk or Kalk/Ca reactor combos.

I too know lots of people who ONLY use a calcium reactor for controlling alk and calcium. Many of these tanks are quite impressive. I'd never say you can't do it this way alone. I'm simply implying it's not the best way for most people. Many people think you have to choose one solution over the others when in fact a combination of 2 methods is more ideal for most people if needed.

Going with either Kalk/Limewater or Ca reactor almost demands the use of a pH controller. A Kalk reactor can be made cheaply from a bucket and small pump so it's usually a lot cheaper to just start with this. Many people could put together a Kalk reactor for free or minimal cost with stuff laying around the tank room (bucket, airline hose, small pump). It's unquestionable (not opinion) more healthy for the tank to use Kalk then a Ca reactor as long as you can keep the pH from rising above a certain point (hence the need for the pH controller).

I do agree with you that not many people can keep their tank at 8.4 without the use of Kalk. This in part is the reason why I suggest starting with Kalk or using it in combination with a Ca reactor to keep the pH of the tank at more natural levels. 8.0 isn't natural for any reefs we get corals from. Most are in the range of 8.3 to 8.6 (not a typo) which is much higher then most typical reef tanks. I've just about always touted keeping tanks on the higher then "normal" pH ranges which many people have disagreed with saying the exceptable range is 7.8-... There's a major difference between exceptable and optimal however. Guys like Anthony Calfo are now writing about pH levels and advocating keeping the reef tank in the 8.3 (at lowest/night levels) to 8.6 range and at 8.6 24/7 if possible. If you have it in your power to keep the tank at NSW levels then why not? Kalk can/will help you do this.

So what I was suggesting is to start out with a Kalk reactor once you've acquired a pH controller. If/when you get to the point that a Kalk reactor can't keep your alk/ca levels up (even with vinegar additions) because the pH would climb to much then you can use a 2 part to make up the difference in alk/ca and save your pennies/bucks for a calcium reactor. Going this route would give you the advantages of strong pH, some phosphate control and completely balanced alk/ca additions with no ionic chemical imbalances until the Calcium reactor/2 part was needed/used.

Does that make more sense?

Carlo

 

[chessmanmark]

Have you considered a Liter Meter to dose two part?

 

[Hawkeye]

If there is one thing this hobby has proven - it is that last decade's (or maybe two decades ago) underwater gravel filter to this years prodibio - there are many many ways to do and execute to get to a hypothetical "ideal". Some consider one method the holy grail, while others say it's snake oil.

Lou - please let us know how it goes with your top-off - as you can tell - everyone has an opinion and it is up to each individual hobbyist to choose the best course of action.

by the way - what do you have in your 120? If you tell me it's fish only then we've been talking calcium for nothing... ;D

 

[Singlemalt]

Hey Phil

I appreciate all the information and opinions and I'm glad to have started a thread that has drawn so many responses. I realize that there are many methods to keeping a reef aquarium sucessfully so the more of them I hear the better informed I'll be.

Since my 120 currently contains only water I may have been a bit premature with my question!! Live rock is currently on order though so I'm getting closer to having actual live things in my tank. I've seen a few DIY plans for Kalk Reactors and may see if I can put one togeher.

My plan is to let the live rock cure then put a few fish in the tank and keep it that way for a couple of months before adding any corals. Eventually I want to keep a variety of corals from Zoanthids to SPS. I want be sure to understand what I'm adding to the tank so I can be sure I've provided the proper enviornment.

Thanks
Lou

 

[Carlo]

Very well said Phil.