Fishless nano

[gogol]

I have a 40G fish tank that has close to 50 snails of different types in it and am going to seed my DT and sump with tigger pods and phyto feast today and add macroalgae (sargassm) to both.

I am hoping not to require a further clean up crew and am negating the need of keeping the skimmer on.

Please let me know if any of you have any experience with fish-less skimmer-less nanos and if so are water changes and Top-offs all the maintainance I would require ?

 

[gogol]

Any one knows of a LFS that carries ocean pods ... I tigger pods seem to be more pain than they are worth.

 

[mnat]

So it anything going into the 40g besides snails and macro algae?

 

[gogol]

I have been researching all sorts of copepods, amphipods and rotifers and will try to have a mix of them (may be less of amphipods) in my DT with cultures in my sump and QT. I will start adding mushrooms and LPS soon.

I am trying to figure out ways of making reef maintenance easier (I know there's no such thing ;D) by keeping things natural and minimising avenues of nutrient import (food, water changes, additives etc)

Here's the thought process:
lights + nutrients grow algae -> snails eat algae,
pods eat (algea + snail poop) -> corals eat pods
corals being the top of the food chain dont get eaten

If it works, then I would like to employ clams to consume my mitrates.

There are many fellow reefers I have met who have gone skimmer-less in favour of higher amount of available nutrients in the water column. I even knew one who never changed water and only did top offs (not an option for my setup)

I will use carbon and phosban passively but only after the nutrient export has been completed in my planted refugium.

 

[Scottyrock]

i understand your theory..... but something just dont seem right.

 

[mnat]

So your basically looking to do just a coral tank, with no fish and was wondering if that would be supported by your cultures?

 

[gogol]

thats the idea ...

 

[mnat]

There are a couple of assumption you are taking with this setup that might or might not work.

1. Your snails can handle all the algae in the tank. With the light you have (my assumption you are running your MH bulb) you are going to have algae that the snails just can't handle. You also have to take into account the phyto can cause a nitrate spike if not used properly. If you have an outbreak of hair algae or any other type, the snails are not going to take care of that.

2. Your macro can ingest enough of the nitrates in your tank to keep the water quality up. The snails poop (as you already said) which even without fish could foul up the water.

3. Your cultures actually thrive in the tank which is pretty hard to determine when most of them are naked to the invisible eye.

4. Depending on what corals you are using water quality will affect them. Mushrooms will probably be just fine, but if you choose some of the pickier LPS (acans, blastos) you could have some issues. They need certain elements that your salt will provide or you will have to dose.

5. Corals will do well under your lights, but do much better when fed. You are assuming that the corals will be able to feed off of the cultures without any target feedings.

Please don't take any of these as me saying you can't do it, just a couple of considerations. I hope you are able to figure out a natural tank as I am sure if would be much better for the tank and for the state of mind of the reefer. I wish the best of luck to you and keep us updated.

 

[Scottyrock]

yeah definatly keep us posted. another thing i was thinkin of was that its alot harder to keep a good count of microfauna up in a small tank, but i guess its worth a shot. if noone took chances on new stuff in this hobby we would still be useing trickle filters and bio-balls.

 

[MadReefer]

I would think frequent water changes will be needed for good water quality and addition of trace elements if not dosing.

 

[Mbodell]

We have a 5 gallon nano with a 3" deep sand bed, snails and blue leg hermits, 5-10 lbs of live rock, and a bicolor blenny. I have no skimmer on the tank, the only filtration is filter floss in an overflow chamber. I have a rotating hydor attachment on a maxijet 400. The tank stays very clean and we only change 1/2 to 1 gallon of the water every two to three weeks.

The tank stays crystal clean with almost no maintenance. I have a leather and zoos in the tank and I supplement with DT's Phyto and I feed the fish/snails mysis shrip every 2 days. I can be done the way you want. If you want to keep sps you will need to change the water more frequently, but you still should be fine.

 

[gogol]

... This was just an idea I hit upon yesterday and have been working towards ... no guarantees with about the results but looked OK on paper.

Some suggestions were given and issues raised which by mnat and others. Thanks a lot guys for indulging my craziness and keeping the discussion going.

1. Your snails can handle all the algae in the tank. With the light you have (my assumption you are running your MH bulb) you are going to have algae that the snails just can't handle. You also have to take into account the phyto can cause a nitrate spike if not used properly. If you have an outbreak of hair algae or any other type, the snails are not going to take care of that.

I plan to have 6500K MH on for 3 hrs a day and Actinics on for 6 hours a day (I know of a fellow member who keeps SPS with this photocycle) which shouldnt result in crazy algae. The green algae doesnt really bother me since my dwarf cerinths do a good job of cleaning it up and whatever's left is helps consume phosphates. Mexican turbo snails eat hair algae.

2. Your macro can ingest enough of the nitrates in your tank to keep the water quality up. The snails poop (as you already said) which even without fish could foul up the water.

Dont forget that "nuisance" algae also does the same job . Regarding snail poop, I am hopeful that the nassarius and the pods would take care of that. Even if they dont, I'm not so sure if you are not any worse off by not skimming (I thought skimmers dealt whith other organics) .. and definitely better off by not adding higher animals like crustaceans and vertibrates.

3.

Your cultures actually thrive in the tank which is pretty hard to determine when most of them are naked to the invisible eye. Phyto can cause a nitrate spike

Not all pods are invisible. Rotifers definitely are, tigger pods you can see (but you have got to look hard) and the pods that you get from the oceanpod bottle(I think they are amphipods) are a couple of mm big and look like centipedes or shrimps.

Excellent point on the phyto , didnt think of that. Looks like I would have to have a seperate pod culture tank after all (should be lower maintenance than the QT ;D)

4. Depending on what corals you are using water quality will affect them. Mushrooms will probably be just fine, but if you choose some of the pickier LPS (acans, blastos) you could have some issues. They need certain elements that your salt will provide or you will have to dose.

I would think frequent water changes will be needed for good water quality and addition of trace elements if not dosing.

Bang on ... and here's where my grand plan falls apart since I would have to use additives which would result in nutrient import. I am inclined towards seachem reefcomplte at the moment but this will have to undergo trial and error (perhaps even calcdrip when I get more calciferous beings). I am planning to always have 10% replacement water ready and would have to test the water frequently.

Ofcourse I also plan on keeping my skimmer on line at all times , to help in the event of spikes. The skimmer intake would have to be covered by a 55 micron sieve to prevent it from becoming a "pod-blender".

5. Corals will do well under your lights, but do much better when fed. You are assuming that the corals will be able to feed off of the cultures without any target feedings.

Herein lies the crux of the experiment. I think target feeding is required for primarily 2 reasons:

a. Coral food is usually non-living and highly nutritious. If you dont target feed, water flow might take the nutrients away from corals where they are consumed by clean up crew and/or rot in your tank.

b. There are is competition for food. The food you feed corals is also consumed by fish and most crustaceans. So you taret feed to make sure that the corals get the food before the other guys steal it.

By keeping my food live and having the corals at the top of the food chain I am attempting to eliminate both the issues. I also think that the success rate of pod predation by corals would improve if I can get them used to a expecting food at a certain time of day. I havent thought this through yet, but auto feeders with a payload of rotifer/pod infested water comes to mind... ???
I might be overthinking the autofeeding. But I would like to turn off my pumps one by one sometime after light out, keep them off for one hour and turn them back on with the same gradation.

 

[JRWOHLER]

You could add some macro algae as nutrient users. I had one of those biospheres that basically had tiny shrimp and algae and was a closed loop system. Worked great till the shrimp died. Basically same thing your attempting to do. Water changes will take out some nutrients think that once you balance things you will be able to accomplish what you are trying to do.

 

[mnat]

It sounds like you have everything pretty well thought out, so I would say go for it. Keep us updated as I am sure I am not alone in wanting to see how this turns out.

 

[gogol]

Keep us updated as I am sure I am not alone in wanting to see how this turns out.

... you definitely have my company there ;D.

Anyone know where to get this without paying shipping? I had got the following last time from Robbies reef and and found it super easy to use this to seed your tank with copepods and what I am sure where amphipods (they were of the size of a small shrimps). Doesn't seem like any of our LFS carry it. My candy cane really like munching on the ones it could get its tentacles on.

https://livecopepods.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3