-
Folks, if you've recently upgraded or renewed your annual club membership but it's still not active, please reach out to the BOD or a moderator. The PayPal system has a slight bug which it doesn't allow it to activate the account on it's own.
Help!!!! DKH=15.0 and ALK=5.37
- Thread starter ricwilli
- Start date
stop dosing and do your usual water change. It will come down eventually.
I retested and I got the same results. I am using Salifert ALK Test kit. About a week ago I started running a CA Reactor (never ran/used one before). After it ran for a few days I tested for Alk and the readings were dKH=6.1 and ALK=2.17. I was told to shut the reactor off, so I did. Today I test the ALK and got the readings that I posted. The Calcium is at 400.
ricwilli, do you have another Alkalinity test kit handy you could test with? Salifert is having all kinds of problems with their Alk and Ca test kits right now. The last 6 of 7 kits I've tested are wrong by a large margin. The Alk kits I've compared to have been off 3-5 dKH on the high side. Personally, I'm done with salifert test kits until the ones with reference solution hit the shelfs.
Anyway, the point is you might not be high at all and right on target. If you can try and get your Ca & Alk comfirmed by a LFS or other member preferable with an API test kit (cheap, easier to use and reliably accurate).
If it does turn out that you are in fact that high just stop the reactor until your dKH hits 10 or even 9 before resuming your adjustments. 15dKH is generally higher then you want to target but not so high to mess up the tank. The usual problem you will have at this level is the precipitation of calcium. The high Alk level creates a situation where Calcium & Magnesium become super saturated at much low levels then normal. Therefore it's not a good idea to dose additional calcium or magnesium (same problem) to raise the levels (higher then 400 Ca) until the Alk levels drop down to 11 dKH or you could start a worse ionic imbalance that is harder to fix then the current problem.
Keep an eye on the Ca ever 2 days and bump it back to 400 if it hits 360 (don't let it get lower then this). Once the dKH hits 13 you can raise your Ca to 420 and once you hit 11 dKH you can/should bump your Ca up to around 440 ppm. 440ppm Ca with a Alk level of 11 dKH is much better and closer to being in ionic balance then you are now.
Chances are if you really needed the use of the Ca reactor you are burning up 1/2 dKH or more of Alkalinity a day and it will come back down to normal in a couple/few days on it's own. If you are due a normal water change by your schedule it would hurt to do but isn't really needed to fix the problem as it will right itself in short order.
Hope this helps,
Carlo
Anyway, the point is you might not be high at all and right on target. If you can try and get your Ca & Alk comfirmed by a LFS or other member preferable with an API test kit (cheap, easier to use and reliably accurate).
If it does turn out that you are in fact that high just stop the reactor until your dKH hits 10 or even 9 before resuming your adjustments. 15dKH is generally higher then you want to target but not so high to mess up the tank. The usual problem you will have at this level is the precipitation of calcium. The high Alk level creates a situation where Calcium & Magnesium become super saturated at much low levels then normal. Therefore it's not a good idea to dose additional calcium or magnesium (same problem) to raise the levels (higher then 400 Ca) until the Alk levels drop down to 11 dKH or you could start a worse ionic imbalance that is harder to fix then the current problem.
Keep an eye on the Ca ever 2 days and bump it back to 400 if it hits 360 (don't let it get lower then this). Once the dKH hits 13 you can raise your Ca to 420 and once you hit 11 dKH you can/should bump your Ca up to around 440 ppm. 440ppm Ca with a Alk level of 11 dKH is much better and closer to being in ionic balance then you are now.
Chances are if you really needed the use of the Ca reactor you are burning up 1/2 dKH or more of Alkalinity a day and it will come back down to normal in a couple/few days on it's own. If you are due a normal water change by your schedule it would hurt to do but isn't really needed to fix the problem as it will right itself in short order.
Hope this helps,
Carlo
Thanks everyone for all your help. I am having a hard time understanding all this chemical stuff. No matter how much I read, I still don't get it. When I got the reading from the test kit, I paniced and posted here as well as in Reefcentral. Everyone is saying to dose calcium (Kent Turbo Calcium) to bring the ALK down. Some are saying not to dose anything. This is very confusing. I do not know what to do. If I do get the ALK down and turn on the CA reactor, will the ALK come back up? I will try to get the water tested tomorrow at the lfs. Right now my PH is at 7.94 and gets up to 8.2 in the morning/afternoon. When I had the reactor on the PH was going down.
I don't know or under stand the details but certain types of Calcium (anhydrous), Turbo Calcium being one of them, will "lock up" a portion of the excess Alk causing the readings to lower. I do agree with somehow proving your tests are accurate through another means. And water changes will help dilute as well. It will come down on it's own but 5.37 is on high side. I usually shoot for 440 and 4.0 which (without starting a debate) is "balanced". I'll bet, if you raise the Ca to 450 with Turbo Calcium, your Alk will be around 4.5 or so. Once balanced, the Ca reactor will maintain the Alk and Ca relationship but will also lower the PH if you don't thoroughly "blow off" the excess CO2. Randy Homes-Farly maintains that as long as the Ca and Alk are on the higher side of NSW, than a PH reading lower than NSW and above 7.8 is acceptable.
Any type of Calcium additive (anhydrous or not) will not lock up alkalinity. Calcium doesn't attract or otherwise lower alkalinity on it's own. It's a misunderstanding that confuses people since adding more calcium can have the effect of lowering alkalinity. <-- sounds confusing and almost like I contradicted myself but keep reading.
I'm going to try and put this in layman's terms and it will probably be slightly incorrect from a pure chemistry standpoint but should be good enough.
There is an ionic balance of elements in our salt water. The water itself can only hold so many minerals (IE Ca, Mg, etc), metals (copper, iron, etc) and Carbonates (including bi). There is something known as a saturation index for each item found in salt water. It's basically the level at which the water can hold no more if everything is in proper balance to NSW. Some things like Ca or Mg can become supersaturated. This means that there is actually more in the water then it should normally be able to be held. This can happen if something else is off (it's a trade off of molecule weight).
With a dHK of around 15 the Ca levels of 400 are very close if not already super saturated. Adding any more Calcium (type doesn't matter) will definitely push the levels into super saturation levels and to the point where the water can not hold it. At this point you get something that looks like a "snow globe" in the tank. It's precipitation of usually minerals and bi/carbonates. Basically the water can't hold the weight of the additive so something must go.
The nutshell version goes something like this. You add more calcium which causes the water to precipitate. Afterward you check the levels. The calcium will normally be at the saturation or super saturation levels but the alkalinity will have dropped. You then repeat as needed until the alkalinity is within range.
The problem is that it won't be just carbonate/bicarbonates and Calcium that precipitate from the water. Without a complete and accurate test of all parameters you don't know what is going to precipitate out of the water. Surely some calcium and alkalinity will precipitate out (why some people recommend doing this) but also trace elements and metals among other things. pH can take a nose dive doing this and he's already at the low end of "safe" on that. Unless you can test for all these things and don't mind playing Russian Roulette with your tank it's not a good idea to allow "arbitrary" things like this happen. You could easily deplete iron, iodine, potassium, borate as well as numerous other things that most people don't check for.
The end result can very easily be worse then the original problem especially since most people don't have the numerous test kits to check everything nor the additives to correct out of whack stuff after the fact. This is compounded by the fact that testing the major items look good but 2 weeks later stuff starts to show stress or RTN because a trace element was nuked or worse yet an ionic imbalance between the elements was created by the precipitation. This is usually only fixed doing many water changes.
There is a time and place that causing a precipitation is better then leaving the tank alone but this isn't one of them. There is also another much easier and safer way to bring down the alkalinity using acid but it's not needed here either as 15 dHK isn't high enough to warrant it.
RichT, keep in mind that Randy doesn't advise being in the 7s on pH and has written numerous articles on pH and how to raise it. Most people can get this up by dripping Kalk or switching to a more pure carbonate based alk additive. He basically says if you can't raise the pH that he feels keeping the Ca, Alk (and also Mg) on the higher side of the acceptable scale is a good idea. The reason behind this is sound and simple. You want to keep as much carbonates/bicarbonate & Boron in the water as possible. The higher the number the more stable the pH will be. Also keep in mind NSW alkalinity is around 7 to 8 dHK so most reefers are already on the higher side of the acceptable range when running 10 and 11 dHK.
ricwilli, advanced salt water chemistry is hard to grasp so don't feel bad. You asked about the not lowering the alk and turning the reactor back on. VERY BAD IDEA. You do not want to do this. A Calcium Reactor could just as easily be called an Alkalinity Reactor (and many would prefer it to be called that) since it raises both in equal ionically balanced proportions in the tank. So right now you don't want to add ANYTHING to the tank at all until your dKH gets back to 11 dKH. I wouldn't bother to even fire up the reactor until you hit 9 dKH. I would however supplement calcium by manual dosing to keep it in the 360 to 44 range (increasing as alk lowers). Once your alk is somewhere around 9 to 10 and Calcium is at 420-440 your good to go with the reactor. It will then keep your levels balanced. After running the reactor for a while you should be able to test either Calcium or Alkalinity and be able to guess the others values within 20ppm calcium or 1 dKH alk since they are balanced at that point.
If you are really worried about the 15 dKH alk reading after getting the 2nd test done to confirm it you can do a 20% water change. A good choice of salt for this water change would be Oceanic or Tropic Marin Pro. Oceanic is cheaper and better for this situation. It's high on Calcium but low on Alkalinity. Typically 520ppm calcium and 7.5 alk.
Pure math here if you were to do a 20% water change (1/5) your calcium would change from 400 to 443.20 and your alk would change from 15 dKH to 12.3 dKH after two water changes.
( (4*400)+(1*520) / 5) = 424 ppm Calcium
( (4*15)+(1*7.5) / 5) = 13.5 dKH
A second water change would leave you:
( (4*424)+(1*520) / 5) = 443.20 ppm Calcium
( (4*13.5)+(1*7.5) / 5) = 12.3 dKH
Same thing doing a 25% water change:
( (3*400)+(1*520) / 5) = 430 ppm Calcium
( (3*15)+(1*7.5) / 5) = 13.125 dKH
2nd water change
( (3*430)+(1*520) / 5) = 452.5 ppm Calcium
( (3*13.125)+(1*7.5) / 5) = 11.71875 dKH
As you can see two 25% water changes with Oceanic a couple of days apart will put you right around where you want to be. The levels will actually be slightly less then these since the tank will use both Calcium and Alkalinity but the math is just to show what the effect of the water changes will do. Test both the tank pH and new salt water pH. If they are more then .5 pH different add the new salt water in slowly over an hour or two to keep the pH from changing more then 0.2 an hour. You don't want to cause stress to the fish or corals from pH shock. Of course temp match the water also.
If you're not due a water change (IE just did one before the problem) you could save the 20/25% water pulled from the system (higher Ca/Alk) and use this water for your next water changes. Just do 2 half schedule water changes using this water. The end result after a month will be no wasted salt since you've used the same amount over time.
I hope this didn't confuse you more.
Carlo
I'm going to try and put this in layman's terms and it will probably be slightly incorrect from a pure chemistry standpoint but should be good enough.
There is an ionic balance of elements in our salt water. The water itself can only hold so many minerals (IE Ca, Mg, etc), metals (copper, iron, etc) and Carbonates (including bi). There is something known as a saturation index for each item found in salt water. It's basically the level at which the water can hold no more if everything is in proper balance to NSW. Some things like Ca or Mg can become supersaturated. This means that there is actually more in the water then it should normally be able to be held. This can happen if something else is off (it's a trade off of molecule weight).
With a dHK of around 15 the Ca levels of 400 are very close if not already super saturated. Adding any more Calcium (type doesn't matter) will definitely push the levels into super saturation levels and to the point where the water can not hold it. At this point you get something that looks like a "snow globe" in the tank. It's precipitation of usually minerals and bi/carbonates. Basically the water can't hold the weight of the additive so something must go.
The nutshell version goes something like this. You add more calcium which causes the water to precipitate. Afterward you check the levels. The calcium will normally be at the saturation or super saturation levels but the alkalinity will have dropped. You then repeat as needed until the alkalinity is within range.
The problem is that it won't be just carbonate/bicarbonates and Calcium that precipitate from the water. Without a complete and accurate test of all parameters you don't know what is going to precipitate out of the water. Surely some calcium and alkalinity will precipitate out (why some people recommend doing this) but also trace elements and metals among other things. pH can take a nose dive doing this and he's already at the low end of "safe" on that. Unless you can test for all these things and don't mind playing Russian Roulette with your tank it's not a good idea to allow "arbitrary" things like this happen. You could easily deplete iron, iodine, potassium, borate as well as numerous other things that most people don't check for.
The end result can very easily be worse then the original problem especially since most people don't have the numerous test kits to check everything nor the additives to correct out of whack stuff after the fact. This is compounded by the fact that testing the major items look good but 2 weeks later stuff starts to show stress or RTN because a trace element was nuked or worse yet an ionic imbalance between the elements was created by the precipitation. This is usually only fixed doing many water changes.
There is a time and place that causing a precipitation is better then leaving the tank alone but this isn't one of them. There is also another much easier and safer way to bring down the alkalinity using acid but it's not needed here either as 15 dHK isn't high enough to warrant it.
RichT, keep in mind that Randy doesn't advise being in the 7s on pH and has written numerous articles on pH and how to raise it. Most people can get this up by dripping Kalk or switching to a more pure carbonate based alk additive. He basically says if you can't raise the pH that he feels keeping the Ca, Alk (and also Mg) on the higher side of the acceptable scale is a good idea. The reason behind this is sound and simple. You want to keep as much carbonates/bicarbonate & Boron in the water as possible. The higher the number the more stable the pH will be. Also keep in mind NSW alkalinity is around 7 to 8 dHK so most reefers are already on the higher side of the acceptable range when running 10 and 11 dHK.
ricwilli, advanced salt water chemistry is hard to grasp so don't feel bad. You asked about the not lowering the alk and turning the reactor back on. VERY BAD IDEA. You do not want to do this. A Calcium Reactor could just as easily be called an Alkalinity Reactor (and many would prefer it to be called that) since it raises both in equal ionically balanced proportions in the tank. So right now you don't want to add ANYTHING to the tank at all until your dKH gets back to 11 dKH. I wouldn't bother to even fire up the reactor until you hit 9 dKH. I would however supplement calcium by manual dosing to keep it in the 360 to 44 range (increasing as alk lowers). Once your alk is somewhere around 9 to 10 and Calcium is at 420-440 your good to go with the reactor. It will then keep your levels balanced. After running the reactor for a while you should be able to test either Calcium or Alkalinity and be able to guess the others values within 20ppm calcium or 1 dKH alk since they are balanced at that point.
If you are really worried about the 15 dKH alk reading after getting the 2nd test done to confirm it you can do a 20% water change. A good choice of salt for this water change would be Oceanic or Tropic Marin Pro. Oceanic is cheaper and better for this situation. It's high on Calcium but low on Alkalinity. Typically 520ppm calcium and 7.5 alk.
Pure math here if you were to do a 20% water change (1/5) your calcium would change from 400 to 443.20 and your alk would change from 15 dKH to 12.3 dKH after two water changes.
( (4*400)+(1*520) / 5) = 424 ppm Calcium
( (4*15)+(1*7.5) / 5) = 13.5 dKH
A second water change would leave you:
( (4*424)+(1*520) / 5) = 443.20 ppm Calcium
( (4*13.5)+(1*7.5) / 5) = 12.3 dKH
Same thing doing a 25% water change:
( (3*400)+(1*520) / 5) = 430 ppm Calcium
( (3*15)+(1*7.5) / 5) = 13.125 dKH
2nd water change
( (3*430)+(1*520) / 5) = 452.5 ppm Calcium
( (3*13.125)+(1*7.5) / 5) = 11.71875 dKH
As you can see two 25% water changes with Oceanic a couple of days apart will put you right around where you want to be. The levels will actually be slightly less then these since the tank will use both Calcium and Alkalinity but the math is just to show what the effect of the water changes will do. Test both the tank pH and new salt water pH. If they are more then .5 pH different add the new salt water in slowly over an hour or two to keep the pH from changing more then 0.2 an hour. You don't want to cause stress to the fish or corals from pH shock. Of course temp match the water also.
If you're not due a water change (IE just did one before the problem) you could save the 20/25% water pulled from the system (higher Ca/Alk) and use this water for your next water changes. Just do 2 half schedule water changes using this water. The end result after a month will be no wasted salt since you've used the same amount over time.
I hope this didn't confuse you more.
Carlo
Concerning the pH: RichT I think you are probably referring to this article of his.
From "The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 3: pH" http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php#3
"The acceptable pH range for reef aquaria is an opinion, rather than a clearly defined fact, and certainly varies based on who is providing the opinion. This range also may be quite different from the "optimal" range. Justifying what is optimal, however, is much more problematic than justifying what is simply acceptable."
"In my opinion, the pH range from 7.8 to 8.5 is a acceptable for reef aquaria, with several caveats. These are:
That the alkalinity is at least 2.5 meq/L (7 dKH) and preferably higher at the lower end of this pH range. This statement is based partly on the fact that many reef aquaria operate acceptably in the pH 7.8 to 8.0 range, but many of the best examples of these types of aquaria incorporate calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors which, while tending to lower the pH, also tend to keep the carbonate alkalinity fairly high (at or above 3 meq/L.). In this case, any problems associated with calcification at these lower pH values may be offset by the higher alkalinity. Low pH stresses calcifying organisms primarily by making it harder for them to obtain sufficient carbonate to deposit skeletons. Raising the alkalinity may mitigate this difficulty by supplying extra bicarbonate to them.
That the calcium level is at least 400 ppm. Calcification becomes more difficult as the pH falls, and it also becomes more difficult as the calcium level falls. It would not be desirable to push all of the extremes of pH, alkalinity and calcium at the same time. So if the pH is on the low side and cannot be easily changed (such as in an aquarium with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor), at least make sure that the calcium level is acceptable (~400-450 ppm)."
The article is dealing with "acceptable pH ranges" not "optimal". He also has a pretty good article for beginners called "Low pH: Causes and Cures" that's a good read located at http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php. I bolded that one section it was not written that way because it pretty much goes with what I originally mentioned. Randy will be the first to tell you he himself is unsure of the use of the high calcium and Alk when pH is lower but that it MAY help. If you read it you'll also see he is careful with his wording too. MAY help not that it WILL. This makes complete sense. He suggests "that the pH of natural seawater, about 8.2, is an appropriate goal" in that article.
I know from talking to him he has been rethinking pH and alkalinity a little bit and agrees with Anthony Calfo that higher pH levels and lower Alk levels (7-9 dKH) are better for the aquarium. Anthony suggests 8.3-8.6 like you would find in Fiji/Tonga where most of our corals come from, while Randy now advocates 8.2-8.4 as solid numbers. I myself like 8.3-8.5 as ideal pH numbers with Alk at 8/9 dKH, but that is beside the point.
Carlo
From "The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners, Part 3: pH" http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php#3
"The acceptable pH range for reef aquaria is an opinion, rather than a clearly defined fact, and certainly varies based on who is providing the opinion. This range also may be quite different from the "optimal" range. Justifying what is optimal, however, is much more problematic than justifying what is simply acceptable."
"In my opinion, the pH range from 7.8 to 8.5 is a acceptable for reef aquaria, with several caveats. These are:
That the alkalinity is at least 2.5 meq/L (7 dKH) and preferably higher at the lower end of this pH range. This statement is based partly on the fact that many reef aquaria operate acceptably in the pH 7.8 to 8.0 range, but many of the best examples of these types of aquaria incorporate calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors which, while tending to lower the pH, also tend to keep the carbonate alkalinity fairly high (at or above 3 meq/L.). In this case, any problems associated with calcification at these lower pH values may be offset by the higher alkalinity. Low pH stresses calcifying organisms primarily by making it harder for them to obtain sufficient carbonate to deposit skeletons. Raising the alkalinity may mitigate this difficulty by supplying extra bicarbonate to them.
That the calcium level is at least 400 ppm. Calcification becomes more difficult as the pH falls, and it also becomes more difficult as the calcium level falls. It would not be desirable to push all of the extremes of pH, alkalinity and calcium at the same time. So if the pH is on the low side and cannot be easily changed (such as in an aquarium with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor), at least make sure that the calcium level is acceptable (~400-450 ppm)."
The article is dealing with "acceptable pH ranges" not "optimal". He also has a pretty good article for beginners called "Low pH: Causes and Cures" that's a good read located at http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php. I bolded that one section it was not written that way because it pretty much goes with what I originally mentioned. Randy will be the first to tell you he himself is unsure of the use of the high calcium and Alk when pH is lower but that it MAY help. If you read it you'll also see he is careful with his wording too. MAY help not that it WILL. This makes complete sense. He suggests "that the pH of natural seawater, about 8.2, is an appropriate goal" in that article.
I know from talking to him he has been rethinking pH and alkalinity a little bit and agrees with Anthony Calfo that higher pH levels and lower Alk levels (7-9 dKH) are better for the aquarium. Anthony suggests 8.3-8.6 like you would find in Fiji/Tonga where most of our corals come from, while Randy now advocates 8.2-8.4 as solid numbers. I myself like 8.3-8.5 as ideal pH numbers with Alk at 8/9 dKH, but that is beside the point.
Carlo
First I want to thank everyone for helping me. I am currently at work and this problem has been on my mind all morning. Well, it looks like there is more than one way to fix this problem. Since, the water change is consistant with everyones opinion, than that is what I will start to do first as soon as I get off work. I have a 72 gallon tank and a 30 gallon sump. I only have a 15 gallon container so that is the amount that I will start with for the water change. As soon as I do the water change I will go to the LFS and have the water tested. I will post the results than we can take it from there.
For salt, I already have two buckets of Instant Ocean. Are these bad salt to use in my situation?
For salt, I already have two buckets of Instant Ocean. Are these bad salt to use in my situation?
IO salt would work but might require a couple of extra water changes to get down to normal levels. I only suggested Oceanic since it is one of the lower alkalinity based salts with high calcium levels. It would serve both lowering the Alk and raising the calcium levels at the same time in appropriate proportions.
Carlo
Carlo
Rick, Carlo is suggesting NOT increasing your calcium at this point because of the potential precipitation reaction of the calcium with the alkalinity. I'm really sorry for all of the confusion along with this topic.
As you can see there are many ways to attack this problem and you're going to get passionate answers in each direction.
As you can see there are many ways to attack this problem and you're going to get passionate answers in each direction.
I went and confused everyone. 
Rick I did suggest adding calcium if and when the calcium gets down to 360-380 bump it back up to 400. This assumes it drops faster then your Alk. Just want to make sure it doesn't get to low.
Part 2:
As the Alk levels drops down from 15 dKH either on it's own or by water changes then you can bump up the calcium by 20-30 ppm for each 2 dKH decrease until you get to around 11 dKH and 440-460 Calcium.
So it could look like this:
15 dKH & 400 ppm Ca
13 dKH & 420-430 ppm Ca
11 dKH & 420-440 or 430-450 ppm Ca
Something along those lines would be safe in my opinion.
Basically Part 2 takes into consideration how much Calcium the water can hold based on the carbonates (alk) and allows you to ramp up your calcium while the alk comes down. This way the end result is a nice ionic balance and your back to just about perfect conditions.
Of course it wouldn't hurt to check Magnesium levels once these two are back in check. Don't worry about that now.
Carlo
Rick I did suggest adding calcium if and when the calcium gets down to 360-380 bump it back up to 400. This assumes it drops faster then your Alk. Just want to make sure it doesn't get to low.
Part 2:
As the Alk levels drops down from 15 dKH either on it's own or by water changes then you can bump up the calcium by 20-30 ppm for each 2 dKH decrease until you get to around 11 dKH and 440-460 Calcium.
So it could look like this:
15 dKH & 400 ppm Ca
13 dKH & 420-430 ppm Ca
11 dKH & 420-440 or 430-450 ppm Ca
Something along those lines would be safe in my opinion.
Basically Part 2 takes into consideration how much Calcium the water can hold based on the carbonates (alk) and allows you to ramp up your calcium while the alk comes down. This way the end result is a nice ionic balance and your back to just about perfect conditions.
Of course it wouldn't hurt to check Magnesium levels once these two are back in check. Don't worry about that now.
Carlo
OK, I am a lucky man..... I went to petsmart right after work to check to see if they had the Oceanic salt, and they did. I had a bag of the salt for a 25 gallon mix and that was $12.99. One of the guys that works there approached me and told me that he had some saltwater stuff in the back that was 50% off. Wouldn't you guess what he brought out from the back? Three 50 gal mix of oceanic salt with other stuff. He gave me each container of salt for $8.25. I grabbed all three and went home a happy man. That happiness didn't last to long until I got home and started worrying about the tank again......But anyways.......
I took a sample of water to the LFS and he confirmed that the ALK is at 6. So I guess my test kit is correct. I purchased another kit just in case. Right now I am mixing about 20 gallons of water to do a water change.
I took a sample of water to the LFS and he confirmed that the ALK is at 6. So I guess my test kit is correct. I purchased another kit just in case. Right now I am mixing about 20 gallons of water to do a water change.
What a nice snag on the salt. Couldn't ask for a better deal then that!
Don't worry about the tank. It's going to be fine (yea I know easy for me to say). Just remember to get the temp of the new water equal or very close to your tank water. pH shouldn't really be a problem so you probably don't need to worry about this with a 20% water change.
Let us know what you test for Calcium and Alk after the water has circulated for a couple of hours.
Carlo
PS Ignore this if it doesn't make sense but I'm sure someone will comment or wonder why I said you shouldn't have to worry about the pH of the water. I said this knowing what the salt will mix up to and what your tank is already at.
But in general if you take the two extremes of pH like if the tank is real low at 7.8 pH and the new water is high at 8.6 pH it's generally still fine to use as is. Here is why:
A 20% water change basically means one part of water is removed from the tank leaving 4 parts. 4 parts solution (tank water) at 7.8 pH (total of 31.2 pH) combined with 1 part at 8.6 pH (new salt water topoff/change) gives a total of 39.8 pH divided by 5 parts averages out to 7.96 pH which is safely in the 0.2 range of allowable pH fluctuation in a short time period.
Technically it can still vary somewhat due to other factors that affect pH but it won't be much and these were extremes 7.8 with 8.6 anyway so it's usually not a big deal. If you do more then 20% water changes it starts to matter more and more depending on how far apart the two sets of water are in pH.
Don't worry about the tank. It's going to be fine (yea I know easy for me to say). Just remember to get the temp of the new water equal or very close to your tank water. pH shouldn't really be a problem so you probably don't need to worry about this with a 20% water change.
Let us know what you test for Calcium and Alk after the water has circulated for a couple of hours.
Carlo
PS Ignore this if it doesn't make sense but I'm sure someone will comment or wonder why I said you shouldn't have to worry about the pH of the water. I said this knowing what the salt will mix up to and what your tank is already at.
But in general if you take the two extremes of pH like if the tank is real low at 7.8 pH and the new water is high at 8.6 pH it's generally still fine to use as is. Here is why:
A 20% water change basically means one part of water is removed from the tank leaving 4 parts. 4 parts solution (tank water) at 7.8 pH (total of 31.2 pH) combined with 1 part at 8.6 pH (new salt water topoff/change) gives a total of 39.8 pH divided by 5 parts averages out to 7.96 pH which is safely in the 0.2 range of allowable pH fluctuation in a short time period.
Technically it can still vary somewhat due to other factors that affect pH but it won't be much and these were extremes 7.8 with 8.6 anyway so it's usually not a big deal. If you do more then 20% water changes it starts to matter more and more depending on how far apart the two sets of water are in pH.
This doesn't surprise me at all but it is a concern.
Just to make sure, the 7 KH is a dKH reading and not meq/L reading correct?
Also, how big a water change did you do (IE 10%, 25% 40%)?
If you did a large water change this would look about correct but I believe you were going to do the 20-25% water change. If you only did a 20% to 25% water change and your alkalinity dropped as much as it did I'm a little concerned (but not surprised) because your water had to be very much out of balance (worse then I thought) to drop this much. It basically was more out of balance then just the alk.
It would have dropped like this because of the Oceanic salt. It's higher then normal in Ca at about 520 (at 35% salinity). What propably happened is exactly what I didn't want to happen (precipitation) by a calcium dose alone. Your system was super saturated (as I mentioned above) and just this little bit of extra calcium in the salt caused everything to precipitate. It probably wasn't bad (precipitation) and you might not have even seen it. Did you notice any cloudy water at all right after the water change, even for only a minute or two?
The saving grace to this (precipitation) is that the Oceanic salt is high in Magnesium, Strontium and other things likely to precipitate out of the water and reason I preferred you to use it. There was also enough alkalinity in the salt itself to keep the system from a crash. I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty confident if you had dosed just pure Turbo Calcium the alkalinity in the tank would have bottomed out, quickly followed by your pH and things would now be very bad.
Moving onward, your system could still be out of balance but it is better then it was! I don't really want to see you dose any one particular product to "fix" things because the problem may be an "illusion". I'd also recommend NOT starting the Ca reactor quite yet for the same reason. I'd like to see you try something for me so we can determine the correct path to getting this right again in the tank.
I'd like to try a 25% water change with Instant Ocean (you already have it) on some TEST WATER to see what happens before we do this on your tank.
1) Mix up a gallon or so of salt water with your Instant Ocean salt mix you already have.
2) Test Ca. and Alk levels of this IO water and write them down.
3) Find an empty gallon milk jug or something similar and fill it with 3/4 gallon of your tank water.
4) Add 1/4 gallon of the new IO salt water you mixed up.
This is essentially a 25% water change (3 parts old water, 1 part new)
5) Mix for an hour
6) Test Ca. and Alk levels of this water.
We already know your tank parameters at this point. With the numbers for your mixed up IO salt and the test water results we'll know if you are over the hump and back to normal or not. I think you are but I'd prefer to find out via this test then the "hard/expensive way" in the tank.
What I'm expecting or hoping to see is the Ca drop or stay at 400 depending on the IO Ca level and your Alkalinity of the test water go UP. If this happens we are in good shape and a 25% water change with Instant Ocean will put your tank back closer to where it should be. Depending on where the alk lands at after the real water change the Ca reactor could be put back on line (closely monitored for a couple of days).
I hope you don't mind doing this in stages like this but I'd prefer to make sure each step a long the road to getting the tank normal is safe.
If this little water test fails or if things don't seem to improve correctly would you be able to send me a pint of tank water (I'd PM you my address)? I would run a set of extensive tests on the water to see what is out of balance, what your different saturation levels are, and we would know for sure how to fix you up. But lets cross that bridge if needed. I think you'll be OK after this test/water change.
Carlo
Just to make sure, the 7 KH is a dKH reading and not meq/L reading correct?
Also, how big a water change did you do (IE 10%, 25% 40%)?
If you did a large water change this would look about correct but I believe you were going to do the 20-25% water change. If you only did a 20% to 25% water change and your alkalinity dropped as much as it did I'm a little concerned (but not surprised) because your water had to be very much out of balance (worse then I thought) to drop this much. It basically was more out of balance then just the alk.
It would have dropped like this because of the Oceanic salt. It's higher then normal in Ca at about 520 (at 35% salinity). What propably happened is exactly what I didn't want to happen (precipitation) by a calcium dose alone. Your system was super saturated (as I mentioned above) and just this little bit of extra calcium in the salt caused everything to precipitate. It probably wasn't bad (precipitation) and you might not have even seen it. Did you notice any cloudy water at all right after the water change, even for only a minute or two?
The saving grace to this (precipitation) is that the Oceanic salt is high in Magnesium, Strontium and other things likely to precipitate out of the water and reason I preferred you to use it. There was also enough alkalinity in the salt itself to keep the system from a crash. I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty confident if you had dosed just pure Turbo Calcium the alkalinity in the tank would have bottomed out, quickly followed by your pH and things would now be very bad.
Moving onward, your system could still be out of balance but it is better then it was! I don't really want to see you dose any one particular product to "fix" things because the problem may be an "illusion". I'd also recommend NOT starting the Ca reactor quite yet for the same reason. I'd like to see you try something for me so we can determine the correct path to getting this right again in the tank.
I'd like to try a 25% water change with Instant Ocean (you already have it) on some TEST WATER to see what happens before we do this on your tank.
1) Mix up a gallon or so of salt water with your Instant Ocean salt mix you already have.
2) Test Ca. and Alk levels of this IO water and write them down.
3) Find an empty gallon milk jug or something similar and fill it with 3/4 gallon of your tank water.
4) Add 1/4 gallon of the new IO salt water you mixed up.
This is essentially a 25% water change (3 parts old water, 1 part new)
5) Mix for an hour
6) Test Ca. and Alk levels of this water.
We already know your tank parameters at this point. With the numbers for your mixed up IO salt and the test water results we'll know if you are over the hump and back to normal or not. I think you are but I'd prefer to find out via this test then the "hard/expensive way" in the tank.
What I'm expecting or hoping to see is the Ca drop or stay at 400 depending on the IO Ca level and your Alkalinity of the test water go UP. If this happens we are in good shape and a 25% water change with Instant Ocean will put your tank back closer to where it should be. Depending on where the alk lands at after the real water change the Ca reactor could be put back on line (closely monitored for a couple of days).
I hope you don't mind doing this in stages like this but I'd prefer to make sure each step a long the road to getting the tank normal is safe.
If this little water test fails or if things don't seem to improve correctly would you be able to send me a pint of tank water (I'd PM you my address)? I would run a set of extensive tests on the water to see what is out of balance, what your different saturation levels are, and we would know for sure how to fix you up. But lets cross that bridge if needed. I think you'll be OK after this test/water change.
Carlo