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Info & Feedback wanted on Marine Salt Mixes

I've been studying salt mixes pretty in depth for the last year. As many of you know I purchase many chemicals in bulk and turn around and wholesale these to different stores. I also formulate different additives. For those that didn't know this I guess you do now. I don't sell retail (yet) so don't ask. :) By end of summer I'll become a club sponsor and sell to anyone in the club or do a group buy if anyone is interested as well as start offering retail as soon as retail packaging is complete.

In my quest of Reef Nutrition and Additives of course salt mixes have come up since it's the basic foundation of the tank water itself. If the water itself is "better" then you don't need to test or dose as much! As a result of lots (I mean lots) of testing and lab work, I've completely stopped using normal store brands and have been using my own formulated salt.

Anyway, some of the things that have caused me to do this are:
Tropic Marin: This is among the best salts out there IMHO but it's too expensive! If it were 25% cheaper I'd probably just use this and never would have set out on the "salt quest".

What I like about Tropic Marin is that it has good levels of Calcium and Magnesium. It's Strontium level is about 12% higher then NSW. It mixes up to 7.5-low 8 levels (depending on batch) of alkalinity (dKH) which is just about right but a little low IMHO. I think the "general recommended alkalinity ranges" up to 11dHK are high and can cause problems in the tank. If the salt is ionically balanced you don't need high dKH levels to get the pH buffered correctly. The pH of the this salt at mix time is around 8.21 and 24hrs later runs at 8.26.

What I don't like about Tropic Marin Sea Salt is that it has very high Copper (2x more then any other salt) and Chromium levels (almost 2x then any other salt). It also has the highest amount of P04 of all the salt brands I've ever tested. It seems to change batch to batch and runs anywhere from 0.05 to 1.20 where NSW is 0.20.

Instant Ocean is very popular and found at most LFS. What I like about it is the fact that it's normally one of the cheaper salts.

What I didn't like about IO that it has the highest Titanium level (10x more then NSW) of all the salts tested and its Aluminum level is 60x that of NSW. IO mixes up to 11.5-12 dKH on Alk (depending on batch) which is high IMHO (see above). Calcium levels of 340 is low and requires a lot of calcium additives to bring it up to reef levels. The pH of both IO & RC is normally 8.15 during mix and 8.18/8.19 respectfully 24hrs later.

IO is Extremely low in Mg. Mg is one of the more expensive additive to purchase. Some people raise IO Mg levels with Epsom salt (MgSO4) which is cheap but then have problems with sulfate buildup. This is a case of the cure is worse then the problem. To raise the Mg levels properly you need to use 10 parts MgCl2 to every 1 part MgSO4 or you'll get a sulfate imbalance which is bad.

On the other hand IO's RC generally tests around 1260 to 1290 for Mg. It definitely has more than IO but is still a little low.

IO also has a funky imbalance. The calcium level when mixed to 35 salinity comes out to 340-380 but the alkalinity comes out to 11.5-12.0 which is to high. Doing large water changes with IO will throw off any use of two part solutions, kalk and Ca reactors as the two "parts" are out of balance in the mix itself. Not good for a reef salt.

IO has the same amount of Strontium as TM but it's out of balance with the Ca level in IO. It's balanced properly in TM and "close enough" in RC to not worry about it.

Phosphate levels for IO salts are under or over NSW depending on the salt you use: Instant Ocean 0.05, Reef Crystals 0.32. Again NSW levels are around 0.20.

From everything I've leaned: If you are an fan of IO salts and run a reef, stop buying IO and ONLY buy RC. The cost difference is minimal but the ionic balance of the salt is much better. By the time you figure how much it costs to add additives to IO to get it where it should be for a reef and be in "balance", RC is cheaper.

Some general non scientific observations:
From following as many "salt" related threads on many different forums a trend I've noticed is that cynao problems seem to happen more with IO users then anyone else statistically. TM users in general have the least amount of cyano problems. I can't help but wonder if this might have something to do with an ionic imbalance in the salt and when a "nutrient" becomes available, "boom" outbreak. If anyone remembers a lecture from MACNA a bunch of tanks were setup with different salts and the IO tank had far more cyano then any other tank. That's probably what got me and others thinking about this last year.

YIELD: not picking on RC since just about every salt is similar but I thought I'd point out something about yield if you've never thought about it.

On Reef Crystals buckets it instructs us to mix it at 1.020 - 1.024 at 75*F. It's formulated so 1.4 pounds of the mix yields 5 gal of salt water at 1.021. Why would "reef salts" be formulated to mix at 1.021??? (of course to claim to mix more) :)

At the bottom front of the bucket you can see the net weight is 44.8 pounds. 44.8 pounds at 1.4 pounds per 5 gallons will give 160 gallons if mixed at 1.021 (160/5*1.4=44.8) so the whole bucket will give you 160 gallons only if mixed at 1.021
To prepare a mix that gives a salinity of 35 you will need 22.8% more salt for "reef tank". So the actual yield of a bucket of 160 gal at 1.021 is actually 130 gallons if prepared for reef salinity.

Here's something else I've learned. Ever noticed how some salt mixes dissolve super fast while others need time to dissolve? Most salt companies use of artificial clarifiers such as E.D.T.A. which cause a salt solution to clear quickly. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency demands requires that E.D.T.A. be excluded from any mixes it uses at its Bioassay Research Testing.

Some salts contain sodium thiosulfate and some don't. Sodium thiosulfate is a de-chlorinator and allows you to use tapwater or water containing chlorine/chloramies. This can be important even if you run an RO/DI unit if you don't check the TDS levels all the time. If you salt doesn't use a de-chlorinator and your water has some TDS then you could be allowing chlorine into your mix which is a poison. It's best to always allow your water to "stand" for 24hrs before using it which would allow this to evaporate even without the use of a de-chlorinator. However, in the event of an extreme emergency where you didn't have make up water on hand and have a serious water problem (or flood) it's nice to know you could always use tap water (if your salt supports it) without worry about chlorine poisoning. Remember I'm talking emergency here!

The absolute best way to purchase salt is in a container that can be used all at one time. Example "50 Gallon" bags. This is usually better then buying a 150-200 Gallon size as far as mix goes (not including price) because of "settlement". Big buckets have a problem where smaller grains of elements sink so that the first mixture and last mixture of the bucket are different. This doesn't matter as much on large systems but on small systems can come into play. BTW, most 50 Gallon bags can make mixing easy. Get a 44 gallon Brute trashcan and fill to 5" from the top. Drop the bag in slowly while it mixes. Then test and add more water. Depending on the brand the 50 gallon bag will normally make close to 43 gallons so you'll learn exactly how much water to put in the can (IE 2" from top) to "drop the bag in" to mix to perfect 35 salinity.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share some of the info I've learned. Now at least you know why I've been on my "salt quest". With that said I'd like to get some feedback from some of you.

Regardless of if you agree or disagree with any of the information above, I'd like to get some feedback from you guys.

I'm trying to create an ionically balanced salt (much harder to do then you think)
I've been trying to target the following for my salt mix which happens to match what I strive to keep my tank running at:
Calcium....430
Alk........8.3
Mag........1320
Strontium..9.0
PH.........8.35

This should give a salt that doesn't need any additions during mixing and shouldn't throw off your "two-part" or calcium reactors. The pH is close to what your tank should be running at so even a very large water change should not "shock" the system as often happens with some salt mixes due to drastic pH differences.

What do you guys think of the above numbers and if you don't like any of them can you tell me why? I'd really like to get as much feedback as possible.

Thanks,
Carlo
 
Hi Carlo..The target numbers are spot on. With any consistent program of frequent and/or larger (say 10%+) water changes, the major parameters of the water in terms of reefkeeping should be easily maintained with this mix over the long term. Only poor husbandry habits such as overfeeding (ph/alk) or overstocking with calcium/strontium etc.demanding corals and inverts will put pressure on such a salt.

My personal experience with salts is basically limited to Tropic Marin which I have used almost exclusively. Like your obsevation, I too have noted an alkalinity on the low side as I have had to constantly manage it.

Hope this helps.

Dom
 
When you ready to package and ship your product give me a call. I sell Packageing and Shipping supplies. And by the way, that's some set you have. Do you have visiting hours.
 
Generally I agree with Carlo's post on salt mixes.

I've used both salts, but that was quite a few years ago, and manufactures do change formulas. When I used Tropic Marin not all the tests we do today were generally available.

It's a good point about Reef Crystals specifying a SG much lower than 1.025. In other words the company is giving you short weight.

I consider the use of sodium thiosulfate in a salt to be a non-issue, since just about every serious reefkeeper I know uses RO/DI water, and any chlorine is long removed before salt is mixed with it.

All this begs the obvious question, "What salt are you using now?"

I use Marine Environment. The downside of ME salt is that it's generally unavailable in NJ, PA, NY, or DE. I have to order it via the net. This makes it extremely expensive. Do I think this is "the best salt"? I do, but I have no way to demonstrate this. If someone says "some other brand" is better, I can't dispute that. A lot of people have reefs that are "better" than mine, and they use a different salt.

My thoughts are the quality of the salt makes the quality of the water you are using. Compared with the cost of livestock, and equipment, salt is cheep. I can't get over the number of people the have no problems spending a bundle of money on lighting or filtration, and then turn around and use a low price, low quality salt. The trouble is I don't know of any way to prove that one salt is better than another one. (see below on testing)

IMO, it's extremely difficult to make a good salt. It takes a lot of expertise in many different fields. This is one area I don't consider to be a DIY project unless you also have the scientific background to back it up. (I will state that I do not know Carlo's background, and he may have the necessary expertise to pull off this type of project.)

I also feel that making a salt that gives good readings is off to a good start, but it is no guarantee that the salt is of high quality. The only way you can do that is to test the salt against other salts, and see how well it maintains the livestock.

This is where it gets difficult. I don't know of any valid long term tests that has ever been done on various salts to see how well each one keeps various types of livestock.

I don't expect to see any soon. Running such tests would be very expensive, and the manufactures, especially of low quality salts, have little to gain.
 
Reefaholic, send me a pm with contact info and let me know what kind of packageing and shipping supplies you sell.

GregW, "Carlo Crystals" - Is that an order from the salt department or the meth lab? :)
Ironically the formal name of the company is "Reef Complete" but using RC in the name is out for obvious reasons. I was thinking "Reef Complete MarineMix" (RCM) or (RCMM), but the RC is still there which could be confusing. Maybe I should have a contest and give a free supply of salt to the winner.

DaveK, we normally generally agree on most things with only differences in "minute" details. :)

I wasn't picking on RC with the yield. Most salt mixes are that way. If any company was to put real yield quantities on the buckets they would price themselves 25% higher then other brands just by doing that. Think about it, most people for the same price bucket would buy a 160 gallon over a 130 bucket because it sounds like you are "getting more". Marketing, got to love them. I just thought I'd throw that fact out there but most people (here at least) were probably already aware of it but might not have figured out the exact amount of yield per bucket. Of course many people run FOWLR system and run a lower salinity too but then it's not a "reef".

Sodium thiosulfate is pretty much a non issue to me also since I use RO/DI water. What got me thinking about it was my dad's tank. It's mostly a FOWLR but he has just started with a few hardy corals (PC lighting). His water level got low one day when a hose popped off and he didn't have enough made up water on hand nor RO/DI water. He usually runs my old Kent RO/DI unit into a 5 gallon bucket as needed. He was using IO which doesn't have the de-chlorinator but was getting ready to switch to my salt. I had just given him 50lbs of my salt so he got lucky and was able to use tap water mixed with it to get back to a proper water level. He then made up water and did 2 25% water changes back to back 3 days apart. I wouldn't ever recommend using tap water, but an emergency is an emergency and that changes your philosophy quite quickly.

I've never used Marine Environment salt (never found it locally). I never liked their "marketing technique" however. They are probably one of the least known salts out on the market at the moment. It seems like they have a "cult following". You either love it or hate it. I think most of the "love" it people are ones who have used it while the "hate" it people are ones who don't like the marketing and never tried it. Like TM it's one of the more expensive salts. The 2 part salt mix of theirs is unique. I've almost had to do this myself too but I've tried to avoid it since I'd think it's a pain. BTW, ME has the de-chlorinator in it and uses clarifies in part 2.

Davek, what do you think of the 2 part mix? Pain or cool? Is it hard to "mix" if say you only want to mix up 30 gallons? Do you need to mix specific amounts at one time? I'd love to get a gallon of 35 salinity water from you one day to run through some tests.

I agree salt is cheap compared to the livestock and equipment, but why pay more then you need to? Take a "typical reefer". If they do 25% water changes every 2 weeks and have a 125 (sump, refuge, etc) they are changing out roughly 31 gallons a shot. They'll get about 4 water changes out of a typical bucket of salt. That's roughly $35 a month for TMPro or $20 for RC. $15 difference a month is pretty substantial to some people and could buy them a new fish every couple of months on the "savings". Other people feel you "get what you pay for" and never give it a 2nd thought. I'm shooting for the middle ground where the price is reasonable and it's a lot easier to think you "get what you pay for".

I agree it's hard to "prove" what salt is better. You can get lab tests of all elements in the salt but that only shows what's in it and makes sure nothing approaches toxic levels (or could over time).

I've got a Hach Spectrophotometer which I've been using to test with. It's sick, you make a tiny change to the salt mixture which you think will change things minimally but then after running through $100+ bucks of tests (reagents) find something like Aluminum, Bromine, Nickel, Lead, etc jumped up more then you want it to be. I've finally found what I consider to be the "perfect" mix and have sent samples to two different labs for verification. I'm waiting on results but don't expect anything I've not already tested for. I will get organic versus inorganic breakdown on a few things my meter doesn't do.

I'm not sure how much different fields of study have to do with producing salt as much as "getting lucky" and determination it seems. The reason I say this is because you mix a couple of different things together and end up with far more "by products" then either should have. Start mixing 10 different things together and the "by products", I mean "trace elements" mount up. Having a chemistry background helps determine where it might be coming from and can help determine a different "product" to use (sometimes) but the main problem is that without good software/computer running chemical simulation software it's hard to figure what the reaction is going to be assuming you know 100% what "trace elements" are in everything, which you don't, unfortunately, so it's still part "guess work" and "trial and error". One thing I wish I knew more about is from the marine biology side of things. I'd love to know more about trace element requirements but I think the field as a whole wants to know more too. It almost seems like there hasn't been much study on this as everyone assumes NSW is what you want to target. Just because something is found in NSW doesn't mean it's required or the optimal amount for the livestock. This is the field where I wish I knew more!

Getting good element readings is definitely important. At least you know you're in the "ball park" as other salt mixes. My tanks are fully running my own salt mix at this point and I've got a mixed reef, 2 rays, aggressive tank with lots of triggers and a new outdoor salt "pond" all running my salt and so far, knock-on-wood everything is looking really good. But one setup does not a "good salt mix" make.

I've also got a couple of small tanks setup independently. One is a pure sps tank and one lps tank. While I can use these for "visual inspection" I'm mostly using them to monitor the amount of trace elements being depleted and built up from the water. These tanks get a 10% water change every two weeks. Ideally my goal is to have a salt mix that has enough trace elements in it to replace the depletion rate as well as not allow a build up over time of other toxic metals. Calcium, Alk & Mg still get boosted separately from the salt as they would with any salt mix.

What's kind of ironic to me is that I don't do water changes on my main system (only additive additions) and makeup water. I don't like ever doing more then a 10% water change as a whole unless there is an emergency. Now supposing I come out with the next "killer" salt mix. My own philosophy on water changes will hurt sales! Hmm, maybe I should start promoting 25% weekly water changes to boost sales down the road. :)

I agree on the long-term testing also. I haven't found any study that isn't 7+ years old which is basically not usuable since most manufactures have changed formulas since then. I can only find in dependant studies of things like Iodine, Strontium (not really useful) and super high toxic levels on some metals (good to know what not to strive for).

DaveK, got a question for you. Next time you mix up a batch of ME water can you let me know what the Calcium, Alk, Mg, pH (Phosphate, Strontium & Iodine if you have test kits) are of the water when mixed to a perfect 35ppt salinity?

Carlo
 
Forgot one question I wanted in feedback.

What in your opinion is the best size salt bag that will mix to a perfect 35ppt salinity? For example if you mix your salt bucket in a Brute 44 Gallon trash can you could fill the can to 1" from the top and pour in a pre-measure bag of salt and have it mix up perfectly. This would probably be 43 gallons. This happens to work well for most "50 gallons" salt bags btw.

A "true" 50 gallon bag would be to big for most people as the Brute 44 is real common.
Is 25 Gallon bags to small for most people or pretty ideal?

I've kind of thought about a box containing 5 bags of 25 gallons or 3 bags of 42 gallon. Roughly the same per box but would make mixing much much easier for the "average" user. All you'd need to do is correctly figure out and mark a spot on your mix up container to use a bag of salt.

An empty milk jug and kitchen measuring cup could be used one time. IE Fill to quart mark on measuring cup, carefully without spilling pour this into empty milk jug. Do this 4 times (4 quarts per gallon). The milk jug will now contain 1 perfect gallon of water. Mark the jug with a pen at the one gallon mark. Now use this jug the first time to calculate 25 or 42 gallons (whatever) in your mix up can and mark that for future mixing. From then on just fill container perfectly to line and pour in one bag of salt mix and let stir. If done correctly you could retire your hydrometer/refractometer/salinity meter or even calibrate it using your salt. :)

What do you guys think? What's the perfect size bag?

Carlo
 

pgordemer

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Brute Can's come in 2 sizes, 34 and 44, with 34 being the most common seen in Home Depot and Lowes. I have never seen any type of can for 25 gallons.
 
I think they're 32 gallon cans. At least I have one that says 32 gallons. My thought on the 25 gallon bag size is that you could use almost anything including a 32 gallon can just only filled partially. My thought was if you only have a 55 or 75 gallon tank you wouldn't need to make up as much at a time. That was why I asked the question to get feedback.

BTW, Brute also makes a 55 gallon can but not very many hardware stores carry it. I've always seen both 32 and 44 at every HD I've been to in NJ/PA but never the 55 as I've wanted to score a couple.

Carlo
 
A couple of observations from me:

First of all, it seems, to me that there are far more people with their systems below 100 gal then above, in which case, assuming you make 10-15% water change, they will be making far less then your full capacity you were talking about (50 gal). And even those with systems to 300 gal, would they really keep all that extra water for weeks. While your point about different parts setting in big buckets, since most of us will use not more then 10% of bucket or (30% of your 50 gal packaging), I am not sure that it is something that you should worry too much. Also, there is something to be said for those 5gal buckets salts are packed in. I prefer them for several reasons to any other packaging method (plastic bag and carton box). It is very sturdy and you can handle/store it any way you like it. It can have (RC) air tight lid so no moisture is coming in and the crystals can stay loose for longer time. Not to mention that in the end you have a free bucket :)

The second thing is, if I understood you correctly, you want to eliminate the need for additives. While I would certainly wellcome anything that would eliminate the need for addition of trace elements, I am not so sure you can eliminate the need for Ca/Alk/I/Mg/Sr additives. Since they are more or less rapidly consumed in various degrees by various organisms and systems, maybe you could have target salts - for stony corals, soft corals and fish only. It can also be a marketing gimmick where you can drive your price because you are "scientifically targeting bla bla bla ..." ;)
So, to conclude, I would be more interested in the salt that will give me the FULL and balanced set of trace elements so I won't be in danger of either adding too much or too little of something that I can't measure. The other stuff would be nice to have in balance and in levels as in natural sea water, but just as a base from which you start supplementing things once they are consumed.
 
Well I'm not so sure about the "free bucket" as the same brands in boxes versus buckets is usually about $3/4 difference. I totally agree on how nice a bucket is however. I hadn't really thought much about box versus bucket but was thinking bags in either. I don't see any issue having 3-5 bags in a bucket.

What would you think about 10 gallon (true for 35ppt salinity) bags of salt? Do you think that would be better for the "average" reefer then larger bags? Heck a person with a 32/44 gallon Brute could just use 3/4 bags. My real objective is to make it easier for the average person and not someone with a large system.

I wouldn't say I'm trying to eliminate additives per say. Ca/Alk and probably Mg would need to be dosed (kalk, 2-part, Ca reactor). Mg/I/Sr would depend on the tank/system but normally doing a 10% biweekly water change would supply these along with all the trace elements most systems would ever need. My objective is more to create a salt mix low in the toxic metals that matches what a real reef tank runs at "major element" wise. Otherwise as soon as you do a water change your Ca/Alk/Mg/Sr (for sure) get thrown out of whack and you get an ionic imbalance. The more water changes you do the worse it gets so to speak with many low cost salts.

Carlo
 
Carlo said:
Well I'm not so sure about the "free bucket" as the same brands in boxes versus buckets is usually about $3/4 difference. I totally agree on how nice a bucket is however. I hadn't really thought much about box versus bucket but was thinking bags in either. I don't see any issue having 3-5 bags in a bucket.

What would you think about 10 gallon (true for 35ppt salinity) bags of salt? Do you think that would be better for the "average" reefer then larger bags? Heck a person with a 32/44 gallon Brute could just use 3/4 bags. My real objective is to make it easier for the average person and not someone with a large system.

I wouldn't say I'm trying to eliminate additives per say. Ca/Alk and probably Mg would need to be dosed (kalk, 2-part, Ca reactor). Mg/I/Sr would depend on the tank/system but normally doing a 10% biweekly water change would supply these along with all the trace elements most systems would ever need. My objective is more to create a salt mix low in the toxic metals that matches what a real reef tank runs at "major element" wise. Otherwise as soon as you do a water change your Ca/Alk/Mg/Sr (for sure) get thrown out of whack and you get an ionic imbalance. The more water changes you do the worse it gets so to speak with many low cost salts.

Carlo

:) C'mon I was just joking about the free buckets. Since my system is not hooked into house plumbing, I find 5 gal buckets most convinient for my salt mixes. Basically that is the limit of how much weight I want to haul accrss my rooms sloshing it along the way on my carpets. My system is roughly 100 gal so depending on wether I am doing 5% or 10% change I would make one or two buckets which is a nice measure. Of course, I wouldn't presume to say what average reefer does, but I believe that some peope whose tanks I have visited do it in the similar way.

To complicate the matters, consider this as well. While I would always use the 5gal water volume for mixes, I might not always mix it at 1.025, which is the my target salinity for my tank. The reason is that tha salinity in my tank will be in the range of 1.024 to 1.025 and I would use my weekly 5% changes for any correction of that salinity, in which case my mixes can be anywhere between 1.015 and 1.030.
 

Subliminal

NJRC Member
Ok, Insert n00b question:

I haven't been mixing my own SW....I've been buying from Eagle Reefs (RO/DI SW for $1.25/g).

I just purchased a RO/DI unit and now need to make a decision on salt.

What brand would be the best for me to start using? TM? RC? Find out what Eagle Reefs uses and go from there?
 

JohnS_323

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Subliminal said:
Ok, Insert n00b question:

I haven't been mixing my own SW....I've been buying from Eagle Reefs (RO/DI SW for $1.25/g).

I just purchased a RO/DI unit and now need to make a decision on salt.

What brand would be the best for me to start using? TM? RC? Find out what Eagle Reefs uses and go from there?

Oh boy, this ought to spark some controversy! I think you'll find there are as many opinions about the "right" brand of salt as there are about the "right" type of lighting to keep. Everyone has their own personal favorite and swears by it. If you check out the poll on the homepage, you'll get an idea of what everyone uses. The funniest thing is that there is wide variety of personal favorites, but the overriding factor for people choosing theirs is "It's the best"!

Take from that that everyone will give you a thousand reasons why "their" choice is better than everyone elses.
 
RichT said:
Did Eric Bornaman ever post the complete results of his salt test?

Not that I'm aware of. It's funny, the only thing that stands out in my mind from his M.A.R.S.H. Salt Study tests was the IO tank with the bad cyano.

There's a thread on RC about it with a link to another site where it continues a little more then at RC but no stats were ever provided that I know of. (just read it the other day).

Carlo
 
mladencovic said:
To complicate the matters, consider this as well. While I would always use the 5gal water volume for mixes, I might not always mix it at 1.025, which is the my target salinity for my tank. The reason is that tha salinity in my tank will be in the range of 1.024 to 1.025 and I would use my weekly 5% changes for any correction of that salinity, in which case my mixes can be anywhere between 1.015 and 1.030.

Yep, good point. I guess the pre-measure bags wouldn't be a hit with anyone running a FOWLR type system either as they would run lower salinity most likely.

Carlo
 
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