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Magnesium way to high!!!!!

ricwilli

ricwilli

OK, here we go again. I just tested for magnesium twice with Salifert test kit and the water didn't even turn color. So that means that I have way to much Magnesium. Is this why I am having a hard time getting Calcium up as well as KH? Right now the Calcium reactor is on. Should I just turn it off? How can I get the Magnesium down?

Calcium = 350
KH = 7
PH = 7.99
Temp = 81
 
Phyl

Phyl

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
The rule of thumb I've heard is that your Ca will be at most roughly 1/3 of your magnesium. With "off the charts" magnesium, you're more likely to be able to support a very high Ca than with low magnesium. What media are you using? I'd suspect the test results and want to verify the test results at my LFS.
 
C

Carlo

It's not so much that the calcium can only be 1/3 of the calcium. It's just that in natural sea water the ppm happens to fall at about 1/3 (ionic balance). It can be much lower or higher. As Phyl pointed out with high Mg levels you can usually push the calcium also assuming the carbonates are low (Alk).

It really depends on the weight of all the different elements in the water (saturation level) but it could be part of the problem. I wouldn't be inclined to rush and do anything about it yet until we know what the actual Mg number is. I'd just let the Ca reactor continue to run for now while we get this sorted out and make sure neither Ca or Alk drops any more.

However it would be helpful to know what the value is. Try doing this. Take a sample of your water. Discard 1/4 of the water, replace with RO/DI water and test this with your Mg kit and see if you get a valid reading. If still to high try 1/2 tank water and 1/2 RO/DI water. You can then simply multiple to figure out the true Mg level. Example if you use 1/2 of each and get a reading of 700 then you would double this for a true reading of 1400.

Trying to drop Mg isn't easy. You can do water changes but this is going to have a minimal change on the overall Mg level in the tank unless it's sky high, because you are still putting back in around 1200 ppm Mg even with a low Mg salt mix and probably more like 1250 ppm. It's normally easiest to just use a low Mg salt like IO when doing water changes and let the tank naturally come down on it's own. But let's see what your actual Mg. level is.

I would agree with Phyl to get a 2nd opinion on Mg test before doing anything.

Carlo

PS I kind of thought your Mg was going to be high from your other problem but wasn't to concerned with it. Your strontium levels might also be high but I wouldn't be concerned with them either right now.
 
ricwilli

ricwilli

I will confirm the Mag reading at the lfs tomorrow and buy another test kit. Carlo, you want me to perform the test with RO/DI water. Is the RO/DI water with IO salt or without?
 
C

Carlo

No salt. Maybe that was confusing. Just think "Dilution". If you can't test the solution because it registers off the chart cut down the sample in a known quantity with PURE RO/DI water. Once you get a reading you correlate the results by the amount of RO/DI water.

Don't worry about the math. If you need to "cut" the tank water with RO/DI just make sure to tell us how much you had to "cut" it and we'll do the math.

Carlo
 
B

Boomer

Well, I don't know what you mean by high but high Mg++ if brought about by sulfate or even chloride can have good and bad issues.

Pro's

High Mg++ in either sulfate or chloride forms can help to control Bryopsis and Cyano and is a method used to do so for about a 2 wk period.

Con's

If it is sulfate based it can make your tank stick due to the production of dimethylsulfide, DMS. This is because photosynthetic organisms need molybdate, MoO4 which is very similar to SO4. They get tricked into talking it up for Molybdate, don't get the moly, so just use some of the "O" and convert the rest to DMS, which smells like rotten eggs. In some life forms this can reduce there population density, especially plankton. So, if your skimmate stinks like this that is what is causing it.
 
C

Carlo

Not to sidetrack the thread.

Boomer, isn't it specifically high magnesium sulfate and not magnesium chloride levels that people have reported help to control Bryopsis?

What did you mean by "make your tank stick due"? Are you referring to sticky skimmate? I've seen the sticky skimmate like that but don't know if that is what you were referring to.

I'm not sure your explanation is entirely correct. You are making it sound like they WILL pick up nothing but SO4 and no MoO4 but I don't think that's the entire case. From what I've gathered they will pick up some SO4 instead of MoO4 but not entirely SO4. Please feel free to correct this if it's wrong. I haven't done or read much on it as it hasn't interested me that much. Just casual reading which is dangerous. :)

Carlo
 
B

Boomer

Boomer, isn't it specifically high magnesium sulfate and not magnesium chloride levels that people have reported help to control Bryopsis?

No, both have been used to in include raising the pH up to 8.5, to limit CO2, with no addition of either to control Bryopsis. The original method was to use Chloride and not Sulfate but the Sulfate method seems to do a better job. All of these methods for Bryo are less than 6 months old. The original discussion was on RF between me and Mojoreef in May or April IIRC when Mojo brought it up and is where the chloride came from. And all the posts you have see came from our discussion. Later a couple of guys tried Sulfate, IIRC on RC, which seems to be better. The methods have been spreading like wildfire across the boards.

What did you mean by "make your tank stick due"? Are you referring to sticky skimmate? I've seen the sticky skimmate like that but don't know if that is what you were referring to.

I said when it smells like or similar if you will, to hydrogen sulfide, "smells like rotten eggs" not just the normal stink.

I'm not sure your explanation is entirely correct. You are making it sound like they WILL pick up nothing but SO4 and no MoO4

I never eluded to such. I also never said zero MoO4 try not to read into my posts.

but not entirely SO4

"don't get the moly"

Does not imply zero moly unless you want to start to knit picking. If that is the case I will start knit picking your posts :) I'm trying to give a general consenses here. Ever hear the statement " you are not getting your vitamins". Does that imply to you someone is getting zero vitamins ?

I might add it is not just the sulfate or chloride ion it is also the Mg++ ion. The Mg++ ion acts as a protective ion for chloride up take. If one is keeping Mangroves you must keep up the Mg++ or they will die form the Chloride ion uptake.

Hi Mg++ usually cause them to rapidly accelerate their growth, where they the crash so to speak. It acts like a enzyme inhibitor at very high uptake levels. Nobody has the full scoop as to what is taking place as of yet as far as I'm concerned.


The same thing happens if sulfate levels are normal and MoO4 is low. The high sulfate or low molbydate causes a self limiting effect for MoO4. And the Sulfate theory is my theory by the way, that I proposed later on RC as to why sulfate may seem to a better choice chemically. :D It is nothing new, it is quite common in a few journals but not in relation to Bryo but plankton.
 
C

Carlo

Thanks for the clarification. I choose poor wording for my question. I should have said/asked aren't people getting better results from sulfate then chloride. You answered it, so thanks.

I read "They get tricked into talking it up for Molybdate, don't get the moly, so just use some of the "O" " and inferred you saying they don't get MoO4 just the SO4. My Bad.

I wasn't knit picking your post. I love reading your stuff on different forums and while I don't always agree 100% (no one ever does) I love your explanations for things!

I know I'm going to love having you here personally. You're going to dethrone me on "book" writing (inside joke - many people say I write to much info and call certain posts "books") with far too much information involved. Even then I feel like a lot of valuable information is left out to keep it as short as possible and not to long of a "book". You're one of the very few people on different boards that I like to follow. You explore many topics that you won't find anywhere else and I love to read and learn from your topics and answers. I'm sure many others here will too. BTW, if it hasn't been said yet, Welcome to NJReefers!

With that said, :) and nothing personal here. I'll try and save you some long-term grief since I've been there. Many of the posts here are just people wanting to know how to raise or lower certain levels of things. It's not a chemistry forum. I struggle hard on this one myself with wanting to type out far more info then the person needs or cares about. For the most part, they just want to know what to do, not how or why it works from a hard core chemistry or other standpoint. (I don't know about you, but for me this is very hard as I like to know why/how before I do something to my tank.) This makes it hard at times IMHO to answer questions because you tend to have to generalize some things to keep it as brief as possible which opens the door to the answer not being 100% scientific but good enough.

What I'd love to have/see is a dedicated chemistry forum here on the site where No-Holds-Bar conversations can take place like at RC. This would be great in my opinion because the general threads could be kept more focused and the detailed explanations could be moved out of the main general threads to their own section/thread. This could allow no compromise answers for those that really want to know the inner workings of things but keep the main general threads focused. People that don't like the long posts or "chemistry lessons" could just skip that section. How about it Phyl?

Talk about getting off topic. I guess I did a good job on this one. ;D Getting back on topic.

ricwilli got your Mg numbers yet?

Carlo
 
Phyl

Phyl

Officer Emeritus
Officer Emeritus
Hey Boomer! Welcome to NJRC. Glad you found your way over. I look forward to seeing you around here more often. I like your new hat, btw.

Carlo, we've been considering an advanced topics forum around here. I think if Boomer wants to stick around it would be a lock!
 
B

Boomer

No worry Carlo. As many know I'm a grumpy old man:D Often one has to generalize things as they can not often be explained in lay terms. If I see one can maybe go to the next level I go for it. The other issue is this is a hobby and many things can not really be explained. I have draw full of them so to speak and even Randy could not explain them. And even Randy has difficulty with some issues. He hates ORP, it is way out of his field. And when I brought an expert on board, Mike Ross from Sensorex, we were all just even more lost. :lol:

Opening the door so to speak can often get one in trouble and that means anyone. It is like one asking what is a Copper made of and you say x electrons, y protons and z neutrons. So you need to explain them. Then someone will ask what is an electorn made of and the post hole digging has started. Try to crasp the thought the universe never ends and if it doses then what. Is it in a box and if so what is outside the box and are there more boxes and how did they get there.........magic ;) Or can something actualy really be zero.

Thanks Phyllis and nice to have met you at MACNA. Having been given the title Honorary Member means I can now "honorarily" keep a better eye on Billy :) Yes, I will be sticking around and checking in.
 
C

Carlo

Copper, oh that stuff the LFS told me to add to the reef to kill the parasites? Yea I know what that is. neutrons? Oh that Jimmy kid in the cartoons. :)

That's about how I think many of us felt with Mike. I think if ORP never existed Randy would have been that much happier! It's such a complex thing and probably best left as a rough guide to water quality used for daily comparison.

Carlo

(joking of course on the copper, don't try this at home or else) :'(
 
blange3

blange3

Glad to see you here Boomer!

If we add a link to the chemistry calculator, I will have no reason to visit RC anymore. The chemistry forum is the only place I found that I was not learning anything new that seemed to matter.

I'm one of the club's grumpier older members and love the occasional discussion about universes in a box! ;D
 
J

Jcurry@wesketch

Welcome to NJRC Boomer, nice to have around here. I got a lot of great information from you and Randy in the RC Chemistry Forum. Although a lot of it was over my head at times I was able to grasp the theory behind some of the more basic chemical relationships and keep things fun. Thanks for all the help.
 
ricwilli

ricwilli

I see this thread has been pretty busy..... Sorry for taking so long, but had a busy day (The wifey birthday). The test result:

Test 1
3/4 Tank water with 1/4 RO/DI = Registered below 840 (I guess you multiply this by 2)

Test 2
1/2 Tank water with 1/2 RO/DI = Registered 1060 (I guess you multiply this by 2)

KH = 7

These test were taken with a new test kit. I couldn't take a sample of the tank water to the lfs as I drove straight to the lfs after work.
 
C

Carlo

That doesn't make sense. The 3/4 tank water value is going to need to be higher then the 1/2 tank value. I'm pretty sure you just switched them but could you double check the values?

I just realized you said you were using a Salifert kit. Forget using 1/2 and 3/4 tank water volumes. Just do the test as normal per the directions. After you use up the first syringe fill it again and start over until you get the color change. Then just add the two results IE 1500+220. I don't remember but I think the directions even mention this but if not it's fine to do it this way. This will be more accurate too.

Carlo
 
ricwilli

ricwilli

I knew something was wrong with the numbers. I am currently at work and will perform the test again when I get home.
 
ricwilli

ricwilli

WOW..... A new forum. That is great. I'm glad the forum is expanding.

OK, I tested the water with two different test kits and they both registered exactly 1380. Is this a better reading?
 
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