My Xenia, paly and GSP ain't looking right.

[saltwater4life]

So then my alk is 6meg which is normal correct? The only other thing i put in the tank is food.
Blange i have Xenia,zoos,open brain,mushrooms,GSP and anemone so no i missed that... i was told to add like half of what it said since i don't have clams or sps.

 

[mladencovic]

Thanks Phyl, umm alk is short for alkalinity??? my test says total alkalinity(KM)-ppm 0,40,80,120,180 and 300 on the color chart. If this isn't alk what is it? i feel so dumb right now...

I strongly advise you to start using the titration method test kits like Salifert's. It is far more precise and reliable. Specially when you realize that three different light sources (neon lights, incandescant bulbs and sunlight) will give you three different readings from your color chart.

 

[blange3]

So then my alk is 6meg which is normal correct? The only other thing i put in the tank is food.
Blange i have Xenia,zoos,open brain,mushrooms,GSP and anemone so no i missed that... i was told to add like half of what it said since i don't have clams or sps.

6 meq is far from normal. Natural seawater is 2.5. Most reefers shoot for 3 -4. 6 is about 16.8 dkh.

As far as adding calcium, if you aren't testing for it, rely on water changes. Only add elements that you are testing for.

 

[Carlo]

If it were me I'd stop all dosing including the vitamins.
I'd take a water sample to your LFS and get them to check your alkalinity & calcium levels. Ask if they will also do a Magnesium & Strontium test too. Report back your numbers. These last two elements could get thrown out of whack because of your high alkalinity. What we want to do is baseline them now and when your tank gets back to around 11 dKH. They will probably need adjusting.

While at the store pick up a Salifert or Red Sea Calcium test kit and an API alkalinity kit. It's one of the cheaper alk kits and works well. The Salifert Alk test kits have to many issues and right now there are bad batches of the alk kit on shelves. Salifert test kits are middle of the road home kits but the alkalinity test kit has to many problems. Even from batch to batch the numbers are 1+dHK off from each other. I've got 3 salifert kits and did a water test yesterday. Got results of 8.5, 10 and 9.5 (rounded). That's a big difference between the same brand. The API tested at 8.5 and my meter showed 8.7 (very accurate). The API alk kits always test closer to my meter then the salifert kits. API is always within .5 (between drips) and the Salifert is as much as 1.5 off. The API is also very easy to use. Fill a test tube to the 5ml mark and add drops. Each drop is 1 dKH. So if you takes 10 drops to change color your alk is 10dKH. It's pretty easy to get .5 dKH numbers with the kit also by the difference of the color change before and after the last drip. If for some reason you absolutely needed to know .5 increments you could just start with 10ml of water and then each drop would be .5dKH since there is 2 times more water.

Anyway, if the LFS finds your ALK high like it appears to be (16+ dKH) then you have 2 ways to solve the problem. One way is to raise your calcium level to be in balance with your alk and then leave it alone and let them both fall back to normal. However with the alk being as high as it is I'd recommend helping it to get lower (see below).

The 2nd way you could address it would be to pickup a bag/bucket of low alk salt and use this to do a series 15% water changes. Not to big because the alk is going to change to much and it could stress the tank.

Personally I'd do a combination of the two but it depends on the numbers you get from the LFS testing. For example at 16.8 dKH (present alk) your calcium level should be 480 ppm. Which salt to purchase to do this would be based on the Mg results you get. If the Mg is 1350 or higher then pickup a bag/bucket of Tropic Marin salt. It's the lowest alk salt there is that I'm aware of. If your calcium levels test at 450 or lower then pick up a small jar of Kent's Turbo Calcium (or similar) calcium additive but make sure it's ONLY calcium and not a buffer too. You don't want any type of buffer. IF THE Mg TEST IS UNDER 1350 then don't buy the calcium product nor Tropic Marin salt. Instead pick up a bag/bucket of Oceanic salt mix. This is also low in alk at about 7.8 but not quite as low as TM. Oceanic has high Mg and Calcium levels. It's actually out of balance with the buffer which generally makes it a BAD salt but for your purposes it will be GREAT because it will help you restore ionic balance in the tank!

Now that you have your salt do a 15% water change. If you end up with the Oceanic salt do two 15% water changes 2 days apart and then test your alk and calcium and report the number back here. If you pickup the Tropic Marin salt do the first water change and then the next day do a calcium and alk test and let us know the numbers. We'll figure out for you how much Turbo Calcium to add (based on a couple of doses that are safe amounts) to start to get your calcium balanced with your alkalinity levels.

Since you'll be using a low alk salt here's an example of what will happen with the water changes to your alk. If you remove 15% of the water and replace it with 7.8dKH water you'll have 8.5 parts 16.8 dKH with 1.5 part 7.8 dKH which will lower your tank to 15.45 dKH. After the second water change you'll have 8.5 parts 15.45 dKH and 1.5 parts 7.8 dKH and your tank will end up at 14.3 dKH. If you were to do a 3rd 15% water change you'd have 8.5 parts 14.3 dKH and 1.5 parts 7.8 dKH and your tank would end up at 13.3 dKH. At that point it's safe enough to just sit back and let the levels fall themselves assuming we've raised the calcium to be where it needs to be.

Your pH of 8.4 looks good to me but it will probably fall some once the alk decreases.

BTW you can convert alkalinity ppm to meq/l by diving the ppm by 50 (300 ppm / 50 = 6 meq/l). To convert meq/l to dKH multiply by 2.8 (6 meq/l x 2.8 = 16.8).

Carlo

PS Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more since it's a little detailed. If you want it explained a little better just say the word.

 

[saltwater4life]

Ok so go get my water tested and if the alk is high get turbo calcium (not buffer) but if the calcium is also high just let everything be and wait?

Thanks Carlo, i'm hoping if i get some rest I'll be able to understand what your saying better... Thank you.
PS. I shouldn't do any dosing until i figure this probblem out?

Nick

 

[Hawkeye]

Here is the stuff i use. I was told this was all i needed so if it isn't please tell me what else i need to use.
Kent Marine, Liquid Calcium.
Kent Marine, PhytoPlex
Kent Marine, Lugol's Solution
and i've been putting Vita chem in my frozen food.

saltwater4life,

I'm sorry about your corals going thru this period. you'll bounce back in no time I'm sure given the great advice here.

If I may be so bold, I see you are dosing various items, but are you testing? If anything comes from this, I would strongly urge that before you purchase any "doser", that you consider whether you can measure it accurately or not.

Check out this article on Alk and Calcium and how they are related. Without knowing your calc - you could be in zone 1, 3 or 4. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

Also - in regards to using Lugol's solution. Check out this other article on water parameters. http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php The table is most useful and the section towards the end about iodide. You may want to consider using Lugol's only for dips.

If there is one thing about this hobby, besides having good friends (to help with the cost of this hobby), we need to be patient, and also avid readers!

In case you haven't noticed I'm a big fan of Mr. R Holmes-Farley. Here's his bio http://reefkeeping.com/authors/rhf.php. I'll summarize - he's smarter than most folks and he didn't have to stay at a holiday inn express. LOL!!! =)

 

[Carlo]

Ok so go get my water tested and if the alk is high get turbo calcium (not buffer) but if the calcium is also high just let everything be and wait?

Thanks Carlo, I'm hoping if i get some rest I'll be able to understand what your saying better... Thank you.
PS. I shouldn't do any dosing until i figure this problem out?

Nick

Actually, don't worry about picking up any Turbo Calcium. I forgot your have the Liquid Calcium already. Pretty much the same thing but one is liquid versus powder.

Let's also eliminate the Mg test from the earlier post as the difference isn't worth the understanding. Just do this:

If lfs alk test shows your ALK at 13 dKH or higher then purchase a bag of salt. You will purchase either Oceanic or TM (doesn't need to be Pro version). Oceanic is cheaper then TM so hopefully we can use that one. Which salt to purchase is based on your Calcium test done at the LFS.

If Calcium test is under 400 buy Oceanic and if over 400 buy TM salt. If they only have one or the other just get that one they have and we'll make do with it. Only buy enough salt to mix for about 50% of your tank volume. We're only going to use it to adjust your levels not switch you to it.

Don't forget to pickup a Calcium and Alk test kit. BTW, if the LFS gets a reading of 16.8 or higher on the alk test don't bother buying an alk test kit as yours is good enough for now and testing correctly.

IMHO I would never add Lugol's Solution to the tank. It's not a good Iodine supplement. It is however very good for a coral dip. I use it all the time for that. Almost all salt mixes contain 10 times the NSW levels of Iodine and it's rare that this needs to be dosed into the tank if you do any type of water changes.

Dosing PhytoPlex is going to hurt your nitrates. So while they are on the higher side you don't want to add this. When/if you get down to 5 ppm nitrates you can dose this again. Let's worry about this one later. With 20 ppm nitrates you most likely have plenty of organics in the water as it is.

The Vita chem is optional but since your nitrates are high I'd opt to stop this temporarily also. When you get to high levels of nitrates it's a good idea to stop putting anything in the tank that isn't absolutely needed (food) and tested for (IE Calc, Alk, Mg).

Carlo

PS let us know the results you get from the LFS and which salt you got assuming your alk is high and we'll take it from there.

 

[blange3]

Ok so go get my water tested and if the alk is high get turbo calcium (not buffer) but if the calcium is also high just let everything be and wait?

Thanks Carlo, i'm hoping if i get some rest I'll be able to understand what your saying better... Thank you.
PS. I shouldn't do any dosing until i figure this probblem out?

Nick

Hey Nick,

As Carlo and I have both said, the steps right now should be:

1)Stop dosing.
2)Get accurate Alk, CA and MG levels.

At that point the most likely action will be to lower the Alk gradually through water changes. But post your parameters first.

Bill

 

[blange3]

The Salifert Alk test kits have to many issues and right now there are bad batches of the alk kit on shelves. Salifert test kits are middle of the road home kits but the alkalinity test kit has to many problems.

Hey Carlo,

Where did you hear about the Alk problems? I want to get batch numbers and check mine out.

Thanks!

 

[mladencovic]

...
While at the store pick up a Salifert or Red Sea Calcium test kit and an API alkalinity kit. It's one of the cheaper alk kits and works well. The Salifert Alk test kits have to many issues and right now there are bad batches of the alk kit on shelves. Salifert test kits are middle of the road home kits but the alkalinity test kit has to many problems. Even from batch to batch the numbers are 1+dHK off from each other. I've got 3 salifert kits and did a water test yesterday. Got results of 8.5, 10 and 9.5 (rounded). That's a big difference between the same brand. The API tested at 8.5 and my meter showed 8.7 (very accurate). The API alk kits always test closer to my meter then the salifert kits. API is always within .5 (between drips) and the Salifert is as much as 1.5 off. The API is also very easy to use. Fill a test tube to the 5ml mark and add drops. Each drop is 1 dKH. So if you takes 10 drops to change color your alk is 10dKH. It's pretty easy to get .5 dKH numbers with the kit also by the difference of the color change before and after the last drip. If for some reason you absolutely needed to know .5 increments you could just start with 10ml of water and then each drop would be .5dKH since there is 2 times more water.
...

Thanks for the warning. My test kit is quite old and soon needs replacing. When I choose Salifert, I compared it with the Red Sea test and they were showing exactly the same readings but I prefered the Salifert.

Here is an idea. How about we establish the regular "calibration/testing" part of each monthly meeting, where we can either bring our water samples for testing or testing equipment for calibration.

 

[twan]

While
#1 I am having problems with Xenia so I cant speak to that
#2 You already have some great info on mag/ph/alk here from others

What I can help you with is lights. Change em out. Here is what my PC's looked like at 9 months at the begining of summer. I will probably change them every 6-7 months in the future.

.

I had 3 blubs and I replaced them 1 a week to not shock any corals.

 

[saltwater4life]

Thank you guys,
Hopefully i'll be able to get to ILC this weekend, Then i'll be able to get everything i need.
So get,
water tested, salt, test kits, lights.

Nick

 

[Carlo]

Hey Carlo,

Where did you hear about the Alk problems? I want to get batch numbers and check mine out.

Thanks!

Hit the problem myself and then searched on reefcentral and found a thread on it. Do a search for it and you'll find batch numbers. I had 3 boxes all with different batches and two were on the list! This is actually from a few months back but unfortunately many of these kits are still sitting on store shelves. This is atleast the 3rd time Salifert has had problems with the Alk test in the last 1.5 years. I'm done with them. I don't like their Mg, Boron and now Alk tests. Just not reliable enough. Of course I don't buy the ammonia, nitrite or nitrate test of theirs either since the API is cheap and works quite well.

I've pretty much got it figured out which tests are cheapest and reliable for each type of test. I should probably gather up the info and post it for others.

Carlo

 

[saltwater4life]

Hey,
Just got back from the lfs. I got my water tested. The guy their said the only thing that was high was my PH. So i got a PH and ALK kit. Hopefully my alk will be normal and i just need new lights or something...

Thanks,


Nick

 

[saltwater4life]

Oh my gosh... i open the kit up to find it doesn't have a test tube... i used my other test tube hoping it's the same size. If it is then my alk is my alk is in the 1.7-2.8 range. It goes by milli equivalents per liter? It's what he recommend...

 

[Carlo]

Oh my gosh... i open the kit up to find it doesn't have a test tube... i used my other test tube hoping it's the same size. If it is then my alk is my alk is in the 1.7-2.8 range. It goes by milli equivalents per liter? It's what he recommend...

The pH measurement he did is garbage. You can't transport your water and expect to get a good pH reading. This is one you need to do at home.

Which Alk & pH test kit did you get? Do you remember the number the person in the store told you for alk?

BTW, to convert meq/l to dHK multiply by 2.8.

So you're in the 4.76 dKH to 7.84 dHK range which would NOW put you on the low side of normal. This is the "opposite" problem we thought you might have. This one is much easier to fix btw so no big deal on this one.

Let's make sure the alk test is being done right. Which kit/brand did you pick up and what vial did you use? Generally speaking you can use any vial from any kit. Just ignore markings on the vial if in doubt and use a syringe to draw the proper amount of tank water and put in a vial glass whatever.

If you tell us the kit you bought and the kit you "borrowed" the vial from we'll know if the test is valid or not.

Carlo

 

[saltwater4life]

Oh I'm sorry i forgot that. I bought the Red sea PH and ALK kit. The vial? (that's the tube thing) I used my saltwater master liquid test kit, by aquarium Pharmaceutical inc. (the brand with the little doctor fish) I know i was looking at the card thinking it was going to be on the high side then i seen it was yellow which is right on the line dividing the low part and the normal part. I was sitting there itching my head.

Thanks Carlo hopefully one of these days i can come up there and get some cheato and check out your system that keeps getting bigger every time i look!


Nick

 

[Carlo]

It's funny, I almost mentioned NOT to get the Red Sea Alk test.

Huston, we have a problem. But we can fix it. The API test vial (tube) you're using has a fill line on it that is 5ml. The Red Sea Alk test needs 10ml of tank water. So get something that is big enough to hold 10ml of water and use the API test vial to measure out 5ml of solution twice (dump into new container). This should give you 10ml.

If you absolutely don't have anything you can use that is crystal clear and will hold 10ml then try your absolute best to fill 6ml in the test tube. Instead of using 5 drops use 3 drops (10ml/5 drops=2ml per drops). You should be able to pretty acurately figure where 6ml is on the vial. Follow normal directions for the test and remember to hold the test tube about 8" away from the card and LOOK DOWN through the test tube to compare the color (some tests you can look through the side of the vial but this one you look down through).

The test itself is OK but trying to "guess" the reading on the card is difficult. That's why I like the API alk test. Add a drop of solution until color changes. Each drop is 1 dHK. No cards to look up.

OK back to business. Hopefully, now you'll be able to get up into the blue area on the card. Try your best to guess a specific value based on the fact the lines in each section are the high and low numbers. If your color is right in the middle of a section then your value will be right in the middle. I realize this is easier said then done but try your best to give us a number. Hopefully you'll be up in the blue area but not "off the chart" blue. One (actually another) thing I don't like about the Red Sea Alk test is that it only goes up to 3.6 meq/l (10.08 dKH). Many reefers like to run their tanks in the 10-11 dKH range.

If you happen to go "off the chart" blue on the test, run it again this time using exactly 5ml but only use 2 drops and tell me the value you get then. I'll figure out what this translates to if needed.

Carlo

 

[saltwater4life]

dang it. Well now we know why my alk is low because it's only half of what is needed... Ok thanks I'll see if i can find something. I'm also going to see if i can get a vial from the red sea site.

Thanks

 

[saltwater4life]

Well i got a vial in the mail. I'm guessing this won't work but can i mix the test water then fill the 5ml vial up with the water after i mix it to see what it says?