If I set up a new tank with live rock from an existing tank, will I need to cycle the new tank, or will the rock take care of busintess like it did in the previous tank?
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New Tank with Previous Live Rock Question
- Thread starter RonnieB1089
- Start date
There seems to be confusion "out there" about where the de-nitrifying bacterias do live. On one hand, there are those that claim that the nitrogen cycle bacterias live only attached to surfaces (live rock, filter media, bio balls, DSB substrate, etc). On the other hand, absolutely EVERYBODY agrees that you shouldn't do extremely large water changes (more then 30% normally or 50% in extreme situations) precisely so that you would not disturb the nitrogen cycle, which, to me, indicate that the cycle is happening in free water column.
So, if the former is the case, then you are right, if later, then you need to cycle it. Since most of the cycling is usually done in two weeks, why don't let it settle in your tank for that period of time anyway, just so that you are safe. That will also give you time to see if you have brought any hitchhikers from and other "guests" from that tank, that you might not have seen at first.
So, if the former is the case, then you are right, if later, then you need to cycle it. Since most of the cycling is usually done in two weeks, why don't let it settle in your tank for that period of time anyway, just so that you are safe. That will also give you time to see if you have brought any hitchhikers from and other "guests" from that tank, that you might not have seen at first.
mladencovic said:
I don't believe that at all. I think you don't do large volume water changes due to the swing in parameters (sg, alk, pH, etc.) you introduce into the system. I have done what would be considered extremely large water changes a few times and have never had any cycle related issues.
In my opinion, as long as the bio load that the rock was supporting in the previous tank is similar to (or greater than) the bio load of the new tank, you should be OK. There is certainly no harm in waiting but I wouldn't expect to see anything significant.
This is just my experience, having done what you’re looking to do on more than one occasion.
I don't really think there is confusion about the denitrifying bacteria. They need/want low oxygen based water to survive. While they can move via the water column they won't live there or be found in any great numbers.
Generally speaking the water change issue has to do with the nitrifying bacteria and not the denitrifying bacteria but not because you would be removing the bacteria itself. When you do large water changes you alter the water a lot and remove the food source "nitrogens/phosphate, etc" from the water column and effectively "starve" some of the bacteria which will die off. Under ideal conditions the nitrifying bacteria can double their population every 2 days. If you are doing large water changes every couple of days you are creating a "roller coaster" effect for your biological filtration which causes growth and die off patterns which isn't ideal. Of course as John just mentioned, mix-matches in sg, alk, pH, etc aren't going to help either but you should be able to control these if you do your water changes correctly. (John posted while I was typing).
I don't/won't do large water changes unless there is an emergency that causes me to dilute something in the tank. I'm a firm believer in not doing large water changes because it can reek havoc on the biological filtration of the system. I'd much rather see a person do 7 days worth of 10% water changes then one large 50% water change if possible exactly for this reason. I haven't even done an intentional water change on my system since Easter (setup). I setup a couple of pumps to do this but still haven't used them. I am removing roughly 20 gallons a day via a UV unit to use in QT tanks so I'm indirectly doing about a 2.5% water change daily. Thus far everything is staying perfect according to test results.
Getting back to the question. Yes the rock can be moved to the new system but you will still have a small cycle (nothing like when just starting out) while the different bacteria grow/shrink in population to match the new tank. You can start out with a light bio load almost right away but don't over do it. Let the tank establish itself. If you don't add fish right away at least drop a couple pieces of flake food in the tank to keep the nitrogen cycle going.
Whenever setting up a new system it's best to turn off skimmers, UV and ozone the first week of having water in the tank. You don't want to kill off or remove any free floating bacteria before it has a chance to attach itself to the live rock or subtrate.
About every 3 to 4 days check your Ammonia, Nitrites & Nitrates just to be on the safe side. If they spike you might want to add some Bio-Spira Marine to the tank (skimmer,UV,ozone off) to kick start it. Adding Bio-Spira Marine to any new tank would not be a bad idea but it's kind of pricey. I use a combination of Bio-Spira Marine and Fritz Turbo 900 since they contain different bacteria and enzymes. BSM works in 24-48hrs while FT900 takes 4 to 7 days to get the same effect.
BTW, unless you need to super jump start the tank with BSM or FT900 one pack is good enough regardless of how many the package indicates is needed for your water volume. Think of it as "seed bacteria".
Carlo
PS don't take this post as me saying not to do large water changes. I just prefer more smaller changes over time as it keeps things more stable.
Generally speaking the water change issue has to do with the nitrifying bacteria and not the denitrifying bacteria but not because you would be removing the bacteria itself. When you do large water changes you alter the water a lot and remove the food source "nitrogens/phosphate, etc" from the water column and effectively "starve" some of the bacteria which will die off. Under ideal conditions the nitrifying bacteria can double their population every 2 days. If you are doing large water changes every couple of days you are creating a "roller coaster" effect for your biological filtration which causes growth and die off patterns which isn't ideal. Of course as John just mentioned, mix-matches in sg, alk, pH, etc aren't going to help either but you should be able to control these if you do your water changes correctly. (John posted while I was typing).
I don't/won't do large water changes unless there is an emergency that causes me to dilute something in the tank. I'm a firm believer in not doing large water changes because it can reek havoc on the biological filtration of the system. I'd much rather see a person do 7 days worth of 10% water changes then one large 50% water change if possible exactly for this reason. I haven't even done an intentional water change on my system since Easter (setup). I setup a couple of pumps to do this but still haven't used them. I am removing roughly 20 gallons a day via a UV unit to use in QT tanks so I'm indirectly doing about a 2.5% water change daily. Thus far everything is staying perfect according to test results.
Getting back to the question. Yes the rock can be moved to the new system but you will still have a small cycle (nothing like when just starting out) while the different bacteria grow/shrink in population to match the new tank. You can start out with a light bio load almost right away but don't over do it. Let the tank establish itself. If you don't add fish right away at least drop a couple pieces of flake food in the tank to keep the nitrogen cycle going.
Whenever setting up a new system it's best to turn off skimmers, UV and ozone the first week of having water in the tank. You don't want to kill off or remove any free floating bacteria before it has a chance to attach itself to the live rock or subtrate.
About every 3 to 4 days check your Ammonia, Nitrites & Nitrates just to be on the safe side. If they spike you might want to add some Bio-Spira Marine to the tank (skimmer,UV,ozone off) to kick start it. Adding Bio-Spira Marine to any new tank would not be a bad idea but it's kind of pricey. I use a combination of Bio-Spira Marine and Fritz Turbo 900 since they contain different bacteria and enzymes. BSM works in 24-48hrs while FT900 takes 4 to 7 days to get the same effect.
BTW, unless you need to super jump start the tank with BSM or FT900 one pack is good enough regardless of how many the package indicates is needed for your water volume. Think of it as "seed bacteria".
Carlo
PS don't take this post as me saying not to do large water changes. I just prefer more smaller changes over time as it keeps things more stable.
Edwardw771
NJRC Member
Looks like another book. Damn Ronnie you ask good questions and spark novels. Here is a good short answer. Take your time. Anything that comes quick in this hubby will not last. You know enough about water quality to do it right. Just go slow.
Actually he started a really good thread and asked a really good question.
Carlo, I am sorry, I have poorly expressed myself, and let me try to clarify a few points that I have tried to make.
First of all i was talking about the whole nitrogen cycle which consists of several steps, and not only about the de-nitrifying part of it - my mistake in not using the correct term.
Now on each step a different set of bacteria acts on a different set of chemicals using different mechanisms. For example, in the initial stage, the most efficient bacterias that decompose amino acids, higher organics and urea into ammonia are considered those that live attached to different surfaces (live rock in our tanks, for example). But there are others as well. On the other hand, the most efficient bacterias that do the "real" de-nitrifying step (2NO3- + 10e- + 12H+ → N2 + 6H2O) do indeed live in anaerobic areas of sea floor sediments (DSB in our case). And, as you have pointed out, the nitrifying bacterias (various) can live in open water column since this step is purely aerobic. So, since every step is critical in this cycle, all of them - rock, water and sand (I almost wrote rock, paper, scissors ;D ) play some role in this cycle.
AND NOW, are you ready for this? Here is a new kink in the whole story 8)
According to this article
http://www.mpi-bremen.de/en/Anammox_Bacteria_produce_Nitrogen_Gas_in_Oceans_Snackbar.html
Huge portion of the de-nitrification in the oceans, and the most efficient, is actually not done by de-nitrifying bacteria, as traditionally thought. These guys claim it is done by anammox bacteria :
which live in a water column with low amounts of oxygen :-X
Carlo, I am sorry, I have poorly expressed myself, and let me try to clarify a few points that I have tried to make.
First of all i was talking about the whole nitrogen cycle which consists of several steps, and not only about the de-nitrifying part of it - my mistake in not using the correct term.
Now on each step a different set of bacteria acts on a different set of chemicals using different mechanisms. For example, in the initial stage, the most efficient bacterias that decompose amino acids, higher organics and urea into ammonia are considered those that live attached to different surfaces (live rock in our tanks, for example). But there are others as well. On the other hand, the most efficient bacterias that do the "real" de-nitrifying step (2NO3- + 10e- + 12H+ → N2 + 6H2O) do indeed live in anaerobic areas of sea floor sediments (DSB in our case). And, as you have pointed out, the nitrifying bacterias (various) can live in open water column since this step is purely aerobic. So, since every step is critical in this cycle, all of them - rock, water and sand (I almost wrote rock, paper, scissors ;D ) play some role in this cycle.
AND NOW, are you ready for this? Here is a new kink in the whole story 8)
According to this article
http://www.mpi-bremen.de/en/Anammox_Bacteria_produce_Nitrogen_Gas_in_Oceans_Snackbar.html
Huge portion of the de-nitrification in the oceans, and the most efficient, is actually not done by de-nitrifying bacteria, as traditionally thought. These guys claim it is done by anammox bacteria :
which live in a water column with low amounts of oxygen :-X
C
concept3
Guest
Edward771 said:
Very true. Take it from a Marine Biologist.
mladencovic said:AND NOW, are you ready for this? Here is a new kink in the whole story 8)
According to this article
http://www.mpi-bremen.de/en/Anammox_Bacteria_produce_Nitrogen_Gas_in_Oceans_Snackbar.html
Huge portion of the de-nitrification in the oceans, and the most efficient, is actually not done by de-nitrifying bacteria, as traditionally thought. These guys claim it is done by anammox bacteria :
I've read about that last year and there is a lot of contradicting stuff about "anaerobic ammonium oxidation". It's been around the circles since 2004. Most experts think it's nothing more then marketing old products under a new premise. Regardless, the basic problem for us in our aquariums is that we don't have these low oxygen areas except in the live rock.
Or course if you build a sulphur or carbon nitate reactor then you can get the anaerobic ammonium oxidation for free.
BTW, the company has a website at http://www.anammox.com
Carlo
With all said and done....you will go thru a small and short cycle. While it could support small stocking of fish if needed, would try to avoid it as depending on how much Rock Vs tank size, you should cycle in about 7 -10 days. Good luck.