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Ozone or not to Ozone
- Thread starter Erich
- Start date
Several people on here use ozone, myself included.
Ozone units create ozone in "air" not water. So what you do is use some type of "reactor" to mix the air with water. You can purchase dedicated reactors to do this but most people use their skimmer to inject ozone. The skimmer is actually ideal for this purpose.
Typically you will find ozone units in the 50mg to 200mg range. Roughly speaking you can multiple .3 to .5 times your total water volume (actual water) to arrive at the estimated ozone generator size in mg needed.
As an example if you have say 100 total gallons of water in your system you would want an ozone generator in the range of 30mg to 50mg. 100x.3 / 100x.5 in mg. Most Ozone generators allow you to adjust the output in mg needed.
Many people use what's called an air dryer to feed "dry" air to the ozone generator. The dryer the air the more effective the ozone output is. The air dryer uses beads that absorb moisture from the air. The beads turn color as they get depleted and can be rejuvenated by putting them in the over for 15 to 20 minutes at 200 degrees or so. I myself find them to be a pain in the butt and stopped using it. Instead I just turn up the Mg's a little more to make up for the difference. So I'd lean on the ".5" calculation to arrive at the size needed for your tank and then purchase that size or the next bigger size.
That is half the story. Besides the ozone generator you will want/need a controller for it to turn it on and off. Some ozone generators have built in controllers (IE Red Sea Deluxe units). Other people purchase an ORP controller or use a computer like the Neptune to control their ozone generators.
ORP stands for Oxygen Redox Potential. The Redox Potential is a relative measure of the concentrations of oxidants (e.g., O2, H2O2, HOCl, O3, NO3-) and reductants (e.g., most organic compounds, sugars, H2S, NH3), weighted by their oxidizing power.
The more waste, the less Redox potential due to lesser oxygen. Redox is usually measured in mV and the range should be between 300 to 450 for marine systems. The more ozone you add to the system the higher the ORP will be.
So an ORP controller & probe is used to measure the ORP of the water and based on it's measurement will turn on or off your ozone generator. Most people will set the ORP target level to somewhere between 375 and 400. Once you find the stop where the controller is turning the ozone generator on and off then you can start to back off on the amount of ozone being injected so that the ozone generator is working/injecting ozone about 90% of the time. Slow and steady is always better then shorter large doses.
A lot of people will also feed the exit water and exit air through carbon but this really isn't needed in salt tanks. It's a very good idea in fresh water and pond type systems but in salt systems the ozone injection "time frame" is much much shorter.
Hopefully this was enough information to get you started understanding what's needed to run ozone.
Let me know what questions you have.
Carlo
Ozone units create ozone in "air" not water. So what you do is use some type of "reactor" to mix the air with water. You can purchase dedicated reactors to do this but most people use their skimmer to inject ozone. The skimmer is actually ideal for this purpose.
Typically you will find ozone units in the 50mg to 200mg range. Roughly speaking you can multiple .3 to .5 times your total water volume (actual water) to arrive at the estimated ozone generator size in mg needed.
As an example if you have say 100 total gallons of water in your system you would want an ozone generator in the range of 30mg to 50mg. 100x.3 / 100x.5 in mg. Most Ozone generators allow you to adjust the output in mg needed.
Many people use what's called an air dryer to feed "dry" air to the ozone generator. The dryer the air the more effective the ozone output is. The air dryer uses beads that absorb moisture from the air. The beads turn color as they get depleted and can be rejuvenated by putting them in the over for 15 to 20 minutes at 200 degrees or so. I myself find them to be a pain in the butt and stopped using it. Instead I just turn up the Mg's a little more to make up for the difference. So I'd lean on the ".5" calculation to arrive at the size needed for your tank and then purchase that size or the next bigger size.
That is half the story. Besides the ozone generator you will want/need a controller for it to turn it on and off. Some ozone generators have built in controllers (IE Red Sea Deluxe units). Other people purchase an ORP controller or use a computer like the Neptune to control their ozone generators.
ORP stands for Oxygen Redox Potential. The Redox Potential is a relative measure of the concentrations of oxidants (e.g., O2, H2O2, HOCl, O3, NO3-) and reductants (e.g., most organic compounds, sugars, H2S, NH3), weighted by their oxidizing power.
The more waste, the less Redox potential due to lesser oxygen. Redox is usually measured in mV and the range should be between 300 to 450 for marine systems. The more ozone you add to the system the higher the ORP will be.
So an ORP controller & probe is used to measure the ORP of the water and based on it's measurement will turn on or off your ozone generator. Most people will set the ORP target level to somewhere between 375 and 400. Once you find the stop where the controller is turning the ozone generator on and off then you can start to back off on the amount of ozone being injected so that the ozone generator is working/injecting ozone about 90% of the time. Slow and steady is always better then shorter large doses.
A lot of people will also feed the exit water and exit air through carbon but this really isn't needed in salt tanks. It's a very good idea in fresh water and pond type systems but in salt systems the ozone injection "time frame" is much much shorter.
Hopefully this was enough information to get you started understanding what's needed to run ozone.
Let me know what questions you have.
Carlo
Here is a nice explanation on Wet Web Meadia, with the further links:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/redox.htm
As you can see there are people that use ozone and are quite happy with it.
For myself, after having tried ozone sever times, for extended periods, over more years than I care to count, I feel that it's more problems and trouble than it's worth.
As Carlo pointed out, ozone should be used with a controller. It is possible to over dose a tank with ozone, but usually not with the smaller ozone generators and using ozone with a skimmer.
Contact time is every thing when using ozone. The best skimmers for using ozone are the old design ones that use a limewood airstone to create the bubbles in the skimmer. These design skimmers are to find today. The newer skimmers that use a venturi or other air injection method, and high flow rates don't give ozone much time do do any good.
For myself, after having tried ozone sever times, for extended periods, over more years than I care to count, I feel that it's more problems and trouble than it's worth.
As Carlo pointed out, ozone should be used with a controller. It is possible to over dose a tank with ozone, but usually not with the smaller ozone generators and using ozone with a skimmer.
Contact time is every thing when using ozone. The best skimmers for using ozone are the old design ones that use a limewood airstone to create the bubbles in the skimmer. These design skimmers are to find today. The newer skimmers that use a venturi or other air injection method, and high flow rates don't give ozone much time do do any good.
DaveK,
Curious what type of problems did you have with ozone?
What trouble would there be that you experienced? Normally it's a set & forget type setup.
I wouldn't really agree that the skimmer makes that much difference in Salt water applications. Unlike fresh water applications the contact time for ozone is nearly instantaneous in salt water. If you were to use it on a freshwater tank or pond then limewood airstone in a reactor would be a much safer environment as the reactor in freshwater is way more important as well as carbon use which is more or less optional in salt environments.
I've got a couple nice skimmers but run my ozone at a full 200mg into a Seaclone 150 (crappy skimmer). It doesn't skim well at all but makes a nice ozone reactor.
Carlo
Curious what type of problems did you have with ozone?
What trouble would there be that you experienced? Normally it's a set & forget type setup.
I wouldn't really agree that the skimmer makes that much difference in Salt water applications. Unlike fresh water applications the contact time for ozone is nearly instantaneous in salt water. If you were to use it on a freshwater tank or pond then limewood airstone in a reactor would be a much safer environment as the reactor in freshwater is way more important as well as carbon use which is more or less optional in salt environments.
I've got a couple nice skimmers but run my ozone at a full 200mg into a Seaclone 150 (crappy skimmer). It doesn't skim well at all but makes a nice ozone reactor.
Carlo
I highly recomend reading these articles by Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley
Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1:
Chemistry and Biochemistry
Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2:
Equipment and Safety
Please take note of the scientific information on the use of air driers and carbon.
Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1:
Chemistry and Biochemistry
Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2:
Equipment and Safety
Please take note of the scientific information on the use of air driers and carbon.
Carlo said:DaveK,
Curious what type of problems did you have with ozone?
What trouble would there be that you experienced? Normally it's a set & forget type setup.
I wouldn't really agree that the skimmer makes that much difference in Salt water applications. Unlike fresh water applications the contact time for ozone is nearly instantaneous in salt water. If you were to use it on a freshwater tank or pond then limewood airstone in a reactor would be a much safer environment as the reactor in freshwater is way more important as well as carbon use which is more or less optional in salt environments.
I've got a couple nice skimmers but run my ozone at a full 200mg into a Seaclone 150 (crappy skimmer). It doesn't skim well at all but makes a nice ozone reactor.
Carlo
The problems that occurred in the "olden days" were getting the ozone to an effective dose, and not killing everything. This was in the days before controllers were generally available. With a controller you still need to make sure you are getting an effective dose. ORP probes, especially the inexpensive single junction probes, tend to drift high. This high reading means the controller turns off the ozone. You also have the issue of exactly how much ozone is produced because damp air will reduce ozone production about 50% (I doing this from memory, so the percentage may be a little off). You can add an air drier in front of the ozoneizer, but then you need to bake the air drying beads about once or twice a week.
That's my whole point. No contact time, no effect on anything. The whole idea behind ozone is to kill off the bad stuff (parasites, algae spores, bacteria, etc). No contact time means that this is not happening.
Now I don't know your exact system, but I would suspect that you could stop the use of ozone and you would see no difference in the system over an extended period of time.
I'm glad to see that someone found a use for a Seaclone.
Ahh, yea I could see things being problematic without a controller. The ORP probes still do the drift routine over a period of a couple months. They need to be cleaned every couple of weeks to help keep accurate readings as any organic file buildup on the probe will give you high readings. The probes should be replaced every year also. I have a toothbrush I use to clean my probes. Once a week I do a quick cleaning with only the brush. Every month or so I do a "normal" cleaning with vinegar.
The good thing about the "drift" is that it does drift high and not low. The worst that happens is that the ozone generator gets turned off quicker instead of allowed to run longer. After a while you can get pretty good at looking at the clarity of the water and knowing roughly what your ORP is. As the probe gets a little dirty you can bump up the setpoint 20-40mv so the ozone generator stays on longer.
I totally agree with your comments on the air drier and the humidity of the air going into the ozone generator. I think it's a pain to have to regenerate all those beads so I don't even both to use the air drier anymore. I try and take this into consideration at the purchase and just buy a bigger unit. If you use the .5 value in the formula I gave earlier to arrive at the basic size unit you need then the air drier can be more of a moot point. I've also found that having a dehumidifier near the ozone unit works wonders. I've noticed my ozone generator working much better since I moved my equipment down to the basement and put the air pump right above the dehumidifier. This makes sense when you figure the air will be drier.
I don't think many people use ozone to kill off bad things like parasites as ozone isn't effective at the rates we apply it to kill off these things. That is a purpose better served by UV at slow flow rates. I like to think of ozone as a "clarifier" to keep the water crystal clear. It helps to break down organics in the water which results in higher ORP values and lower nitrates.
I do know what happens when I run my system without ozone (without it for 6 weeks). The water becomes more cloudy and I have to run more carbon & Purigen to keep it clear and my nitrate levels climb as there is more organics in the water to break down.
Is ozone for everyone, NOPE. Many people could run carbon to get a similar effect of clarity in the water. When I was running 100 gallons or so before I went with ozone I was running an ORP controller (Neptune AC III Pro) and would use the ORP value to turn on a pump that ran water through a couple Phosban reactors full of carbon. The carbon helped clear up the water and when the ORP would rise past 350mv the pump would get turned off saving the carbon. With fresh carbon the pump would only run a little bit. As the carbon was getting used up it was easy to see the pump was running a lot more. When the carbon was no longer able to keep my water at the ORP level I wanted it was time to change the carbon. ORP monitoring in this setup allowed me to get full use of the carbon without guessing when it was time to change it! Also by keeping a ORP setpoint I never experienced any issues with carbon either.
Note: Some people see coral bleaching when they run carbon. As the carbon "cleans" the water light is able to penetrate the water better and they sometimes see the same affect as when they change out their light bulbs - more light which causes bleaching or negative coral reactions.
Here's how I look at the use of ozone. If you run carbon/Purigen/Chemi-pure to help clear your water then you are a candidate. Simply calculate the cost of the media you use and when it would become cheaper to purchase ozone over the media over a set time period (say 1 or 2 years) then make the change to ozone. If you look at ozone injection as a "glorified electronic carbon" and treat it as such it gets easier to justify on media saving costs over a period of time.
If you are looking to kill off "bad" things in the water then shift your focus away from ozone and look at UV instead.
Carlo
The good thing about the "drift" is that it does drift high and not low. The worst that happens is that the ozone generator gets turned off quicker instead of allowed to run longer. After a while you can get pretty good at looking at the clarity of the water and knowing roughly what your ORP is. As the probe gets a little dirty you can bump up the setpoint 20-40mv so the ozone generator stays on longer.
I totally agree with your comments on the air drier and the humidity of the air going into the ozone generator. I think it's a pain to have to regenerate all those beads so I don't even both to use the air drier anymore. I try and take this into consideration at the purchase and just buy a bigger unit. If you use the .5 value in the formula I gave earlier to arrive at the basic size unit you need then the air drier can be more of a moot point. I've also found that having a dehumidifier near the ozone unit works wonders. I've noticed my ozone generator working much better since I moved my equipment down to the basement and put the air pump right above the dehumidifier. This makes sense when you figure the air will be drier.
I don't think many people use ozone to kill off bad things like parasites as ozone isn't effective at the rates we apply it to kill off these things. That is a purpose better served by UV at slow flow rates. I like to think of ozone as a "clarifier" to keep the water crystal clear. It helps to break down organics in the water which results in higher ORP values and lower nitrates.
I do know what happens when I run my system without ozone (without it for 6 weeks). The water becomes more cloudy and I have to run more carbon & Purigen to keep it clear and my nitrate levels climb as there is more organics in the water to break down.
Is ozone for everyone, NOPE. Many people could run carbon to get a similar effect of clarity in the water. When I was running 100 gallons or so before I went with ozone I was running an ORP controller (Neptune AC III Pro) and would use the ORP value to turn on a pump that ran water through a couple Phosban reactors full of carbon. The carbon helped clear up the water and when the ORP would rise past 350mv the pump would get turned off saving the carbon. With fresh carbon the pump would only run a little bit. As the carbon was getting used up it was easy to see the pump was running a lot more. When the carbon was no longer able to keep my water at the ORP level I wanted it was time to change the carbon. ORP monitoring in this setup allowed me to get full use of the carbon without guessing when it was time to change it! Also by keeping a ORP setpoint I never experienced any issues with carbon either.
Note: Some people see coral bleaching when they run carbon. As the carbon "cleans" the water light is able to penetrate the water better and they sometimes see the same affect as when they change out their light bulbs - more light which causes bleaching or negative coral reactions.
Here's how I look at the use of ozone. If you run carbon/Purigen/Chemi-pure to help clear your water then you are a candidate. Simply calculate the cost of the media you use and when it would become cheaper to purchase ozone over the media over a set time period (say 1 or 2 years) then make the change to ozone. If you look at ozone injection as a "glorified electronic carbon" and treat it as such it gets easier to justify on media saving costs over a period of time.
If you are looking to kill off "bad" things in the water then shift your focus away from ozone and look at UV instead.
Carlo
I use ozone. I have it hooked to a homemade dryer with desiccant beads that turn pink. It goes into my 6 foot tall DIY Beckett through a "tee". Right into the air intake. I find that my ORP is around 380 without it, and i have it on a controller to go up to 400. Most of the time it is off. I have the skimmer return output flow through carbon in a sock.
I like it.
I like it.