Saving Fish with Velvet

[calaxa]

Bill,

I don't want to go on a big rant about the usage of chloroquine but will try to sum it in a nutshell.

First and foremost, chloroquine ONLY targets one life cycle of Amyloodinium ocellatum, whereas copper prevents tomont division in addition to attacking the dinospore.

Chloroquine is much more expensive than copper. It would also completely devastate my biological filter. Copper kills some bacteria but will more than likely leave my sponge filter working.

Chloroquine cannot be measured. I would first have to estimate the volume of water in my QT, then decide on the proper dosage. As there is no prescribed dosage, I will now have to rely on other references for some type of guideline dose. Copper has been used for over 70 years and is tried and true. It is measurable with standard kits. It has come a long way since the days of copper sulfate to safer forms such as chelated and protein complexed.

Chloroquine is not easily available. It was available in one commercial product but that company went bankrupt. I would more than likely have to get a prescription from a vet/doctor to get this drug. Had I done that instead of copper, I'm sure all your fish would've been dead by now as you know how fast MV kills.

As Chloroquine does not prevent tomont division, I would have to subject the livestock for longer exposure to the drug to insure all MV is killed and that the lifecycle is complete. This would mean a minimum of 21 days and probably 28-35 days with full exposure to this drug. This drug does have some side affects to the digestive tract of marine fish.

I stick by my assessment that copper is the safest method. You will find more references confirming my decision than vice versa.

 

[Rbu1]

Thanks for the explanation Nathan. I know there are a good amount of people keeping an eye on this thread. Some feel it is a great thing to learn from. I am glad my stupidity can help people. My plan is to wait till June before adding any fish back to the tank. There are some different views about the eels. Some people feel I should have removed them as well because they can host the parasite. I am starting to feel differently. Knowing how fast that velvet was working thru the tank I would think the eels would have shown some kind of issue by now. Thanks again for all you are doing Nathan. BILL

 

[calaxa]

I checked on that for you. Eels will not host but like any other object, they can be carriers of the MV parasite. June is a paranoid there. Most documents say 6-8 weeks and the longest recorded cyst was 60 days (so adding life cycle would make it about approx 84 days). Hmmmm, that's mid-May so maybe you aren't so paranoid. Your eel probably has the bacterial infection that was the secondary issue. I see it appear on the purple and I think one of the clowns in the form of fin rot. Did you ever add some antibiotic to the tank?

 

[calaxa]

I just want to note for anyone following along that I am not shunning the use of chloroquine. I have no experience using it in a marine environment and as it is a complex molecule, there are some interactions with it with proteins and inorganics in SW. I have a strong biochem and chem background and discourage the use of drugs in general. I feel that it is a terrible solution and without understanding the complete metabolic pathway, I would not recommend its usage. Copper is no better but at least it is a proven solution for the pathogen that has been indentified. I would never recommend the use of copper or chloroquine as a prophylactic and would rather see a drug free QT or at the most hypo. Obviously, once something is identified, a course of action would be necessary. Others will disagree with me on this methodology and that is fair.

 

[jmckdvm]

I don't want to go on a big rant about the usage of chloroquine but will try to sum it in a nutshell.

First and foremost, chloroquine ONLY targets one life cycle of Amyloodinium ocellatum, whereas copper prevents tomont division in addition to attacking the dinospore.

Chloroquine is much more expensive than copper. It would also completely devastate my biological filter. Copper kills some bacteria but will more than likely leave my sponge filter working.

Chloroquine cannot be measured. I would first have to estimate the volume of water in my QT, then decide on the proper dosage. As there is no prescribed dosage, I will now have to rely on other references for some type of guideline dose. Copper has been used for over 70 years and is tried and true. It is measurable with standard kits. It has come a long way since the days of copper sulfate to safer forms such as chelated and protein complexed.

Chloroquine is not easily available. It was available in one commercial product but that company went bankrupt. I would more than likely have to get a prescription from a vet/doctor to get this drug. Had I done that instead of copper, I'm sure all your fish would've been dead by now as you know how fast MV kills.

As Chloroquine does not prevent tomont division, I would have to subject the livestock for longer exposure to the drug to insure all MV is killed and that the lifecycle is complete. This would mean a minimum of 21 days and probably 28-35 days with full exposure to this drug. This drug does have some side affects to the digestive tract of marine fish.

I stick by my assessment that copper is the safest method. You will find more references confirming my decision than vice versa.

Logged

I don't wish to start a debate over chloroquine vs copper, but I also don't want readers to be misinformed. With all due respect, I'd like to comment on Nathan's statements:

1) Although many sources state that chloroquine only targets certain stages, all I can say is that it certainly seems to work well, and has many advantages over copper, (as I will mention).
2) Chloroquine is NOT expensive ($2 per 8-10 gallons; 1 dose is usually sufficient).
3) Although a prescription is required, chloroquine can easily be obtained from me. (See my post on chloroquine on my Vender Forum: Dr. Jim's Reef Corner)
4) Chloroquine does NOT affect the biological filter. (I've never had a problem with nitrites or ammonia using bare-bottom QT tanks with bioballs for a filter). The addition of buffers is necessary, however, to keep the pH up, but I'm not convinced that this is due to the chloroquine, it may just be due to the fact that I use bare-bottom tanks with no sand or rock to help buffer the water).
5) There is not a great need to measure chloroquine. One dose for a 3 week period is generally all that is needed.
6) Chloroquine is NOT toxic to fish in comparison to copper which is DEFINITELY toxic! (The toxic effects of copper are well-documented in the literature). Although chelated copper is less toxic than non-chelated copper, it is well-known that the chelated form is much less effective. I've used copper for 37 years (and chloroquine for about 3 years) and I am convinced that I have fewer deaths when using chloroquine. I'm also convinced that many mortalities were from the toxic effects of copper.

I have used chloroquine on many shipments of fish from wholesalers. Fish from wholesalers have a high incidence of parasites, so I've had plenty of "practice" experimenting with quarantine/treatment techniques. There is no doubt in my mind that chloroquine is the safest, easiest, and most effective way to eliminate protozoan parasites. I will even go as far as saying that it is probably a mistake to use copper any longer, now that we have chloroquine available.

Dr. Jim

 

[calaxa]

Jim,

I am not a fan of copper either but let's be fair and compare today's copper treatment with chloroquine. We cannot go back in time and look at copper sulfate anymore so treatment today would only be with chelated and protein complexed copper such as cupramine. With that said, I do want to go over some of the points.

1) Although many sources state that chloroquine only targets certain stages, all I can say is that it certainly seems to work well, and has many advantages over copper, (as I will mention).

I agree that chloroquine has been documented to work. Unfortunately, there is not enough documented literature to have me thoroughly convinced yet that is the best protozoan treatment. I feel that crypto is best performed with hypo, formalin is still the choice for brook, and copper is the best for MV.

2) Chloroquine is NOT expensive ($2 per 8-10 gallons; 1 dose is usually sufficient).
3) Although a prescription is required, chloroquine can easily be obtained from me. (See my post on chloroquine on my Vender Forum: Dr. Jim's Reef Corner)

2 fish died in transit with total travel time of 1 hour. Another was on his last leg. To reach you and get the drug would have delayed me another 2-3 hours before starting treatment. MV is just too fast a killer for me to have this luxury. That price is cheaper than I expected but is still about 4x as much as cupramine.

4) Chloroquine does NOT affect the biological filter. (I've never had a problem with nitrites or ammonia using bare-bottom QT tanks with bioballs for a filter). The addition of buffers is necessary, however, to keep the pH up, but I'm not convinced that this is due to the chloroquine, it may just be due to the fact that I use bare-bottom tanks with no sand or rock to help buffer the water).

Other literature contradicts this. Nitrifying bacteria suffers from the introduction of chloroquine. I have 1 simple sponge filter that had run in my brine culture. I know the amount of bacteria seeded will not withstand the present livestock for very long.

5) There is not a great need to measure chloroquine. One dose for a 3 week period is generally all that is needed.

This would be fine if I knew exactly the volume of water in my QT. The QT was prepared 10 hours before livestock was brought in and I am going with my best guess as to how much water is in there. The need to measure my medication prevents me from using a guideline dosage.

6) Chloroquine is NOT toxic to fish in comparison to copper which is DEFINITELY toxic! (The toxic effects of copper are well-documented in the literature). Although chelated copper is less toxic than non-chelated copper, it is well-known that the chelated form is much less effective. I've used copper for 37 years (and chloroquine for about 3 years) and I am convinced that I have fewer deaths when using chloroquine. I'm also convinced that many mortalities were from the toxic effects of copper.

Copper is toxic for sure and again I am not a big fan but given the alternatives between doing nothing, adding copper, or spending a few more hours to see if I could obtain chloroquine (which I have no experience using), I think I made the best decision. I suspect that chloroquine has long term detrimental effects as well that have not yet been recorded and am very hestitant to use something without knowing fully the metabolic pathway of said medicine.

 

[Sandee]

Wow. I wonder if something is going around (like the flu or that horrible cough everyone in my family and others have!). I just lost 4 great fish to Velvet last week and over the weekend. I was treating with Copper Power. Large, beautiful Butterfly, Sailfin, small Lion and a Dogface puffer. They all went pretty fast except for the Dogface - but in a way, I'm glad he passed ... he was in the worst shape. I was very careful with him, as I know puffers can be sensitive to full doses of Copper. I'm left with the large Lion and a Hardwickii Wrasse. The Lion isn't happy and the Wrasse looks confused ... I'm thinking they were the most hearty of the bunch.

I can only attribute this to the Pakistani Butterfly I got a few weeks ago, maybe longer - put him in the 90g directly ... didn't appear well, pulled him out and into the QT. He died a few days later.

Anyway ... I always rush it, will be more careful next time. REALLY doing my best not to mix water or use any nets from one tank to the next. With about 6 salt tanks now - I really need to be careful!

 

[calaxa]

Sandee,

You should know better than to be putting a fish into a system without QT (of course, I'm a hypocrite) :

 

[Sandee]

... spoke too soon. The Lion fish just passed away. VERY odd expression on his face. Gills and mouth wide open. Typically that means, nitrite or ammonia problems - yes? But the tank checks out ok. Wrasse still seems ok - alone, but ok.

 

[calaxa]

nitrite or ammonia poisoning can appear like suffocation. It usually is accompanied by red streaking. Remember velvet also is death from aphyxiation as the parasites cripple the gills.

 

[Rbu1]

Nathan are you also treating with an antibiotic?

 

[calaxa]

I am adding antibiotics during the FW dip. It's trauma enough right now with the Copper. I also must be very choosy about antibiotics. I'm relying on a simple sponge for filtration. I don't have an ammonia/nitrite kit that will distinguish between free nitrogen and amide compounds.

 

[Rbu1]

OK just wanted to ask. Thanks. I greatly appreciate you trying to save my fish. BILL

 

[calaxa]

I actually am going to FW dip them one more time and take some pictures. I'm not sure right now but I think the purple has improved significantly. It is very hard to look at fish from the top down in a completely black tank in a dim room. Someone must have eaten cause there were no pellets left on bottom of tank. Not sure who is doing it but someone is healthy enough to eat. Next time, QT and don't buy fish from that same store (at least for a long while). Just QT it at my house if you are that lazy.

BTW....maybe you should make a massive water change and correct that SG while you're at it.

 

[Sandee]

I only started reading this thread on Velvet today. But, I guess I was following the same treatment routine - or close to it anyway (FWD, Copper, etc.). So I'm left with the Wrasse - great fish, hoping he'll be ok.

Here's my question - what should I do now? How long should I wait for the tank to clear - of both the disease and copper. I understand the copper will be in there for a long long time - but this is just a 90g fish only tank. Stunned.

And thanks very much for the information ...

 

[calaxa]

Sandee,

You added Copper into your display? Please tell me no. Please tell me there was no LR or LS. If you did, arag and carbonate absorb copper which would be why you are not getting the correct level. I hope you are testing with a good copper kit (salifert is best). Also, I hope you used cupramine since it is the gentlest copper treatment. It requires 0.3-0.5 for 14-21 days. If you are FW dipping, it actually can be a lot less time (ie 7-10 days). The main system must remain fallow for 6-8 weeks and unlike crypto, this is not a conservative estimate. Some people suggest 12 weeks. The lifecycle of amyloodinium is a lot longer.

To remove the copper, use carbon. I think polyfilters work and something called cuprisorb. Problem is, your LR and LS will have it and can leech back out later on.

 

[Rbu1]

I found out that my refractometer is off a little. I am at 1.027 right now. I will get it down slowly with water changes. I just ordered a new refractometer. I will be buying my fish going forward from Dr. Jim. I want to make sure the fish going in are disease free. If I need to get something from a LFS it will go in a QT. I am not going thru this again.........

 

[Sandee]

No no no. No live rock or anything - just the fish (and only one fish now).

Mike over at Reef Encounter recommended the Copper Power. It's made in Newton, NJ actually.

http://www.fishsupply.com/supplies-medications-copper-power.html - for info.

 

[calaxa]

Here are some pictures of the purple tang

Sunday morning (full copper dosage reached earlier in day)

Tuesday morning (40 hours later) He's pale in these because of stress color.

You can see that a lot of the dots have disappeared. I'll focus on his secondary infection after copper treatment is over.

 

[calaxa]

No no no. No live rock or anything - just the fish (and only one fish now).

Mike over at Reef Encounter recommended the Copper Power. It's made in Newton, NJ actually.

http://www.fishsupply.com/supplies-medications-copper-power.html - for info.

Sandee,

I don't know anything about the product. Seachem's cupramine is considered the gold standard these days for copper treatment. It's effective at 0.25 ppm and recommended dosage is 0.50 and can even be tolerated by most fish at 0.80. It's protein complexed so it shouldn't fall out of solution very easily. Seems to be working well so far.