Sump without drilling

[gogol]

I was thinking of adding a sump, for the practical advantages that it provides (addition aof gravity dosers, reactors etc.), but did not want to get into the tank drilling tanks. Please let me know if the following would work.

I was thinking, of the following setup.

1. Have the sump below the main tank.
2. Have 1 clear tubing going from main tank to sump.
3. Have the HOB refugium on the back of the sump. (The refugium is equipped with a Rio 4HF Hyperflow Pump @ 260 Gph)
4. Have the return feed of the refugium directed towards the main tank.

In my naivette this seems like a simple siphon system that should work. But I am sure there are pitfalls because of which no one has tried this. Is the pump too weak to do my bidding?

Here is a diagram of what I am trying to achieve:

 

[redfishbluefish]

Couple comments:

1. By running the siphon directly from the display to the sump, you are not controlling flow rate...it will siphon dependent on the physics of pipe diameter, friction, column height, blah, blah, blah. You need to put an overflow box on the back of the display tank. It will maintain your display at a constant water height and allow fluxuations in flow from the return pump.

2. You don't mention how water gets from the sump into the HOB refugium to be returned. If the refugium is still going to be used as a refugium, you don't want high flow through the refugium. Accordingly, I would just put the return pump in the sump and leave the refugium to cycle water throught it at a reduced flow.

 

[gogol]

Thanks for the reply rf-bf and raising pertinent doubts.

1. By running the siphon directly from the display to the sump, you are not controlling flow rate...

I am assuming (big assumption this), that the major factor in controlling the rate of water flow from display to sump would be the height of water column above the siphon intake(determining the pressure at intake point) and the radius of the pipe itself (controlling the volume of water passage) .
Both could be played around with, (especially the first one, where I just have the intake at different depths within the display and see where the pressure and flow suits me.

You don't mention how water gets from the sump into the HOB refugium to be returned. If the refugium is still going to be used as a refugium, you don't want high flow through the refugium.

Water gets into the refugium, to be retruned to display, by using the Rio 260 gph pump. The refugium itself has baffles to slow the flow rate. I could add further baffles in the sump if I do not like the flow rate.

There are somethings that I had not considered though.
1. In case of a power outage, my sump pump goes out and the upward flow is broken , BUT the siphon is not!!!
Causing a sump overflow. (Try to find a float switch solution to this problem)

2. The inlet of the siphon in display has to be covered by nets/ fine cloth to prevent sucking in unsuscpecting tank residents.

3. All tubing has to be black in colour to prevent algal formation within which will modify the flow rate of tubes.


Please excuse my naivete. I am still pretty new to the hobby, and like all other newbies I am baffled (pun not intended ) as to why a simple siphoning and pumping setup needs to be very complicated and expensive.

 

[redfishbluefish]

By siphoning directly, your outflow water rate MUST EQUAL your inflow water rate. If the outflow is greater than inflow, eventually the water level will drop below the siphon, the siphon will stop, but the return pump won't. It will continue to pump until you sump is empty...flood. If the inflow is greater than outflow, eventually the water level in the display will overflow the tank....flood. You really need to use an overflow box. It maintains a steady water level in the tank while allowing fluxuations in the return water rate. Please either use an overflow box (which is a siphon method with control) or drill the tank.

 

[gogol]

After learning about Jon's (1f-2f) horror stories with his HOB overflow, I am hesitant to go that route. And as the post says that I am not thrilled about drilling either.

Looks like this project is on hold till some time.

Thanks a lot for your inputs Paul.

 

[SirFragalot]

I know how you feel. I have been wanting to do the same thing for my 55 for a while but the horror stories of HOB overflows scare me a bit. There isnt a sure fire way to prevent flodding with these if somethinf fails? I will be following the thread as ideas come along.

 

[onefish2fish]

After learning about Jon's (1f-2f) horror stories with his HOB overflow, I am hesitant to go that route. And as the post says that I am not thrilled about drilling either.

Looks like this project is on hold till some time.

Thanks a lot for your inputs Paul.

if i am reading this right you just want to use a piece of clear tubing to siphon down to your sump? the HOB overflow is by FAR safer then this method. when the power fails ( and it will sometime ) the pump will stop pumping from the sump and the tank will siphon down until the tubing sucks air and stops the siphon, when the power kicks back on ( good chance of you not being home when this happens and even if you are ) the pump contines to pump to the display while the tubing doesnt restart its siphon.
the thing about the HOB overflows is that they will restart themselves or atleast they should. some need the help of an aqualifter but others are self starting. there are also DIY ways to make overflows from PVC pipe but the ones ive seen, seem bulky. i know you dont want to drill, but thats by far the safest method.

 

[gogol]

Re: Sump without drilling (Plan B )

Ok here's another plan (look at diagram below)

In this one I would be using a pump in the sump to feed my display tank, and the output of my HOB skimmer to feed my sump. Since both of the devices are electrical they would shut down and turn on at the same time in case of power outages.

Flooding situations:

1. Sump Flooding (Outflow from skimmer over runs intake of sump pump)

This will happen if the skimmer outflow outruns the sump pump intake or if sump pump stops working. Whenever the skimmer flow is about to flood the sump, the mechanical float switch in the sump detects a rise in water level above threshold and stops the flow to the sump. This flow then is diverted back to the display using the overflow.

2. Display Tank Flooding

This can happen if skimmer pump stops working. In this case the electrical float switch in the display tank detects a rise in water level above threshold and cuts off the power to the sump pump.

Please let me know of the pitfalls in my design ( I realise it is an iterative process). Also, please give me suggestions for the plumbing tubes/pipes etc that can handle around 250 Gph water flow. Also does any one have any experience with a mechanical and an electrical float switch that is suitable for the above design?

 

[steamman]

Use an overflow box and a float switch in the main tank in case you loose siphon. DONE. Cost about $200 altogether.
Float switch http://www.marinedepot.com/Ultralife_Float_Switch_Electric_Powered_Dosing_Pumps_Top_Off_Plug_In_Units-Ultralife-UL1111-FIDPETPU-vi.html
Overflow box http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_aquariumpage.aspx?pagealias=overflow_boxes_cpr&gclid=CO_UjqqEiZwCFVRM5QodywE5ZA