Need help locating container for ATO

[TanksNStuff]

Hi all. I'm finally getting an Auto Top Off because adding water every day is getting old. I'm picking up a Tunze Osmolator package tonight. That takes care of all the float switches, controls, and the pump. Now all I need is to find an adequate container to hold my water.

Here is a pic of my sump/stand to give you an idea of what I'm dealing with:

I plan on putting my container on that shelf on the right hand side. It's pretty sturdy and the previous owner used it for the same purpose. If need be, I can either use extra supports to make it stronger, or remove it entirely to make a taller container fit.

Now, the problem I'm having is finding a container that will fit between the corner of the sump and the right edge of the opening. I have a max of about 7 or 7.5 inches wide. My system evaps about 2 to 2.5 gallons a day, so I want a container that will hold at least 5 gallons. Otherwise, I may as well not even bother. Most 5+ gal containers I'm finding are around 8.5" wide though. I might be able to turn the container sideways and then drop it down on the right, but the distance between my sump and the power strip up top is about the same anyway... so I'm still limited in width. Also, the container would need to have a sealable lid so the water won't spill if I do that.

The height of the container can be around 20" or so and still fit on the shelf. I could get about 6-8 more inches in height if I remove the shelf.

The length of the container can be anywhere up to 16" long, but that's a tight fit and might not work if I slide it thru the sump and stand on an angle. I'm thinking a length of around 12" might work best.

The container itself needs to slide in and out easily. I will also need to be able to put the submersible pump in the container, so I will need an opening of at least 2.5" wide. I'm willing to cut/modify the container (if it's possible) to make this work. For example, if it had a removable lid, I could put the sump in, then just make an opening for the tubing and power to go through, then just remove the lid and the pump whenever I need to fill it back up.

So, anyone have any ideas of where I can buy something like this? In summary, I'm hoping for something that's 12" long x 7.5" wide x 20" high. Height is least of my concern, as long as it will still hold 5+ gallons.

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

 

[Hawkeye]

that is a really tight space to use.

A 5 gallon salt bucket is 12 inches diameter. I would think you need at least that much room to handle 5 gallons.

You could conceivably have it custom made I guess.

I dunno - I'm just bummed I responded to the tunze package too late. hahah!

 

[SWITCH420]

cant u just get a tall type of bucket like a kitchen garbage one and put on the side of the setup?what i did basically

 

[TanksNStuff]

that is a really tight space to use.

A 5 gallon salt bucket is 12 inches diameter. I would think you need at least that much room to handle 5 gallons.

You could conceivably have it custom made I guess.

I dunno - I'm just bummed I responded to the tunze package too late. hahah!

Yea, it is tight, and is stressing me out, lol. It should be plenty of space though. I used a tank volume calculator and if I was able to get a 7.5"W x 12"L x 20"H container, that would be 8 gallons, and I could get 10 gallons if it were 16"L (but that might be too long to squeeze through and make the turn. The 8 gallons should be plenty to last me almost all week though.

I could always just remove the shelf, make a custom acrylic container w/lid that takes up the whole area and will hold about 18 gallons or so, and then just pump or dump water into the stationary container whenever needed. I'd have to drain the sump and move it out temporarily to get that thing in, but it might be the way I end up going.

Sorry I beat you to the Tunze, but I've been there on missing out on things too. :'( He still has the JBJ package for $40 and just needs a pump. A very good deal IMO and I almost bought that too just for the heck of it.


SWITCH, although that is a very logical solution, it just wouldn't look right in the family room with a large trash can sitting next to the display tank. My fiance certainly would give me the evil eye for that, hehe. I may actually end up doing that when I go on vacation though, just to make sure I have enough water to keep the sump level. Going away in June to get married and that's part of the reason I need to get an ATO setup so badly.

I found a local store called "The Container Store" which sounds like if anyone carried what I need, they would have it. If I can't find something there I'll start planning on making something myself... unless anyone else has any ideas.

Maybe something Like this?

 

[Jcurry@wesketch]

Why not cut a hole in the sheetrock and drill a small hole down the basement in the wall? Then you could use something larger like a brute garbage can or those 55 barrels.

 

[Hawkeye]

Going away in June to get married and that's part of the reason I need to get an ATO setup so badly.

I found a local store called "The Container Store" which sounds like if anyone carried what I need, they would have it.

Congrats! They should have a registry and OGII/AqOb.

Though I'm sure the other half probably prefers crate and barrel or something or other. Decisions decisions...

Speaking of which -The container store. Been there. It's more like a giant store for various ways to store your clothes/help organize etc. I would be leary of whether the containers there could stand up to holding water over a long period of time. Even rubbermaid ones will bow over time unless they are the brute kind.

 

[TanksNStuff]

Jcurry - If I had a basement, I would do a lot more than fix the ATO container issue. Sadly, I live on a slab floor and my tank is along a half-wall between the dining room and living room... so I'm kind of limited to inside the stand for whatever I do for my tank.

Hawkeye - Thanks, and I already suggested registering at a pet store but I just got the evil eye. I had to play it off like I was just kidding, but I really wasn't, haha.

Anyway, as for the container... I actually found something at that store that I thought was perfect. Well it sort of was as far as dimensions go. I got This pet food container (the smaller one with no wheels). It holds 21 qts, which is slightly over 5 gallons.

The dimensions state that it's 8-7/8" wide, but that's only at the very top, basically that's the lid width. It narrows down to about 6" but the majority of the container part is about 7" wide max... so I took a chance and bought it. To my surprise, it just barely slid through my opening and sat on the shelf. The lid was just barely touching the bottom of my power strip panel, but it was a winner for the job. I think if I can get it setup so the lid will close and give support around the top edge, it will be sturdy enough to last.

Here's a couple pics of it on the shelf (please ignore the mess underneath, that stuff used to all be on the shelf and I didn't have a chance to reorganize it yet):

As you can see, the pump power and tubing make the lid unclosable, but I can probably just cut some grooves out of the container near the top, and then they will drop down to let the lid shut closed. That should be an easy fix.

You might also notice the wires and stuff are a big mess. I plan on wire-tying them into a neat organized fashion once I get everything worked out. Another easy fix. In fact, here's a pic of where I plan on mounting the controller to the door to help make it neater (I need to get some adhesive based velcro today to stick it on.)

Now, what you might also notice... something I hadn't even thought of when designing this... is that when the container is full, or even partially full as I first tried it, gravity will feed the water into my sump without the pump being turned on! This is the new critical issue I need to resolve ASAP. Granted, my sump will hold all the water that will drain until the container level is even or below the pump tubing end, so it won't overflow. However, I can't have the "normal" level that high because it's no good for the skimmer, and it makes my sump baffles useless since the water is higher than they are... not to mention that if my return pump fails, I'd have to worry about the extra volume from the tank overflow drain.

So, I thought about it all night and came up with three possible solutions:

#1. Remove the shelf, which will lower the top level of the container about 4"-5", and then I will just fill the container to whatever level is below where the pump discharge tubing is mounted.

#2. Mount the discharge tubing up higher than the top of the container, but then I would need some sort of piping to funnel the pumped water down into the sump.

#3. Install a valve that closes at a certain water level, which would probably require another float switch? I'd need some ideas on this one as I don't know what I would need to make this work.

Option #1 seems easiest, but it might end up limiting how much water volume I can store in the container. It will also eliminate the small cubby section under the shelf where I store my test kits, flakes, etc. Easy sounds good, but I'm not sure I can live with the other two negatives.

Option #2 will require some crafty planning and designing. Maybe I could just use a 3/4" pvc pipe as my funnel, but how will I mount it to the sump? Maybe I could just add a wye or tee fitting to the bottom and hope it stands up itself? Maybe zip strap it to the side of the sump somehow? That could work. But then how will I mount the pump discharge tubing when I don't have anything to attach it to at that height? Any way I could mount it directly to the pvc pipe?

Option #3 would probably be an acceptable solution, provided it won't cost a lot for special valves/float switches, etc.

In case anyone is interested, here's a relatively closeup pic of the how/where I mounted the float switch/sensor and the pump tubing is the one on the right (it ends just outside the pic).

The water in my sump is just above the "normal" level in this pic, but the sensor is set at the proper level and I tested this with the pump inside the sump before putting the container of water in. I also tested the "high-level" float switch by lifting it up manually. This stopped the pump and sounded the alarm. So all the control functions are working properly and at the proper height.

The reason the level is higher than "normal" in the pic is because the water started to gravity feed from the container when I moved the pump into it... until I unhooked the pump tubing and raised it above the water level in the container which stopped it. When the opening in the tubing was lower than the container level, it caused a natural siphon and started filling the sump. By stuffing all the excess tubing into the container and leaving just a short piece exiting the top, then lifting the end up high to drain the water back into the container, and then hanging the end back into my sump... I was able to stop the siphon and went to bed. I thought I had fixed this problem. But, with my skimmer sucking some water out (because the high level it was now at) and some evap over night, the sensor / controller must have kicked the pump on briefly, which started the gravity siphon again. The exit point in the tube was still lower than the container level and since the pump filled the line it was able to continue the siphon again.

So this morning, I found my sump about 3-4 inches higher than "normal" and the container was much emptier than what I left it last night. I think it will be OK to leave it like this during the day, but I'll have to correct it somehow tonight.

After all that gets resolved, the only thing I think I will have left to do is find a way to make the pump stand up straight in the container. Maybe once I cut notches for the wires/tubing, I will be able to pull them tight and keep it upright? Hoping that works, but if not, I need to figure out something else.

Any thoughts / advice for any fixes?

 

[Hawkeye]

Take a small drill bit and drill right into the top cover. The cord for the water is easily removable and you slid it right thru. The pump itself is connected to a $2 radio shack wire thingy. Get a screw driver and unscrew that - take the wires out and then voila you can thread that wire right thru the drilled cover. This is what I did with my tunze.

As for the siphon - easy easy solution. Hook up the return of the water into your display - direct IN your overflow chamber (unless you want it into your display direct). Of course keep the tube itself above the water line. If you don't have enough "tubing" - you can order it or just use the same tubing from your rodi. I've got a ton of that stuff if you want it. You could just add a checkvalve or something to extend the length of your existing tubing and add it. This "option" is cheapest as all you need is the tubing.

Tunze provides velcro with the device - but I guess you didn't get that. That is ok because If ound over time the velcro to be not the best. Just get some from a hardware store and you'll be good to go.

 

[TanksNStuff]

Hey, thanks for the great ideas Phil. I never thought to pump the water up to my display or into the overflow instead of the sump. That might cause a slight delay between pump shut down and when its actually at the right level. But, that would keep the end well above the container and eliminate the siphon. Hope I have a long enough tube to reach up there.

As far as drilling the hole... sounds like a good idea but I want to be able to quickly remove the pump from the container so I can take the container into the garage to refill it. The lid is hinged so if I put the tube / wires through the lid, I would have to fish them through at every refill. If I just notch them like I said before, I could just slide out the container, open the lid and move the pump to the sump til I bring the full container back.

I just bought an industrial strength pack of Velcros that I think will work great. The controller came with a small piece stuck on it, but only one half. I guess whatever it was stuck to before still has the other half. Anyway, that problem is fixed.

Now to go see how long my tubing is...

 

[Nickjr000]

Hey, thanks for the great ideas Phil. I never thought to pump the water up to my display or into the overflow instead of the sump. That might cause a slight delay between pump shut down and when its actually at the right level. But, that would keep the end well above the container and eliminate the siphon. Hope I have a long enough tube to reach up there.

As far as drilling the hole... sounds like a good idea but I want to be able to quickly remove the pump from the container so I can take the container into the garage to refill it. The lid is hinged so if I put the tube / wires through the lid, I would have to fish them through at every refill. If I just notch them like I said before, I could just slide out the container, open the lid and move the pump to the sump til I bring the full container back.

I just bought an industrial strength pack of Velcros that I think will work great. The controller came with a small piece stuck on it, but only one half. I guess whatever it was stuck to before still has the other half. Anyway, that problem is fixed.

Now to go see how long my tubing is...

Dont cut a notch in the container this will badly weakin it. Just cut a u notch in the lid so when you close it the wires and tubing wind up inside the notch.

If you run the tubing up to you dt make sure it's not under water at all orit will siphon back to your top off container and quickly overflow cause it's so small.

Another simple and very cheap option. # 4, is to get a piece of 1/2 or 3/4 " pvc and put it from in your sump to the top of the inside of your stand. Which is higher then your top off container. Now just mount the ato tubing like 2" inside that pipe and fasten it so it stays there. You won't have to worry about the tube ever falling out of the dt on to the floor and flooding your room and everything is still inside your stand