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POTM Recommendation discussion
- Thread starter TanksNStuff
- Start date
I was wondering the same thing Dave.
Since this topic didn't get a whole lot of interest, it doesn't seem like many people care what happens either way. Also, out of all those that did comment, it seems the majority agree that software "enhancing" is not really fair... but there really isn't any way to enforce or prove whether someone actually used software to manipulate a photo.
Therefore, I don't think we can do anything more than suggesting to keep it fair and not use any.
The other topic brought up was whether descriptions should be included in the voting or not. That seemed to have mixed results with people on both sides of the fence. Maybe we should vote on that and let the members choose that decision?
Since this topic didn't get a whole lot of interest, it doesn't seem like many people care what happens either way. Also, out of all those that did comment, it seems the majority agree that software "enhancing" is not really fair... but there really isn't any way to enforce or prove whether someone actually used software to manipulate a photo.
Therefore, I don't think we can do anything more than suggesting to keep it fair and not use any.
The other topic brought up was whether descriptions should be included in the voting or not. That seemed to have mixed results with people on both sides of the fence. Maybe we should vote on that and let the members choose that decision?
I've been quiet for awhile now, very busy at work and there were some other issues that made me stay away from the club. But, I do read the posts. Photography is my job, I do it every single day and I think there's nothing wrong with enhancing images. Sharpening them, making it lighter or darker, brightening the colors,etc is all part of the digital age. When a wedding photographer photographs a wedding each and every image is looked at and somehow enhanced, every single image. There is no way someone can capture an image and have it look 100% correct !!!
Now, photo shopping 2 fish together, taken in 2 different tanks and made to look like they are both in the same tank I don’t think would be accepted.
If NJRC wants images for a calendar then the images will need to be of higher quality, and enhanced.
The rules for POTM might need to be looked at and changed, but I think a few more things need to be ironed out.
Another thought, at the monthly meetings might it be possible to look into having someone come in to go over ' Basic Photography '.
I had wanted to suggest these things awhile back, even volunteering to teach the photography, but like I said there were some issues with the club that I needed to step away from.
I just think to not allow basic enhancement of an image will only result in people slowly ignoring the POTM because they will think there image doesn’t look good without enhancing it to make it look better
steve
Now, photo shopping 2 fish together, taken in 2 different tanks and made to look like they are both in the same tank I don’t think would be accepted.
If NJRC wants images for a calendar then the images will need to be of higher quality, and enhanced.
The rules for POTM might need to be looked at and changed, but I think a few more things need to be ironed out.
Another thought, at the monthly meetings might it be possible to look into having someone come in to go over ' Basic Photography '.
I had wanted to suggest these things awhile back, even volunteering to teach the photography, but like I said there were some issues with the club that I needed to step away from.
I just think to not allow basic enhancement of an image will only result in people slowly ignoring the POTM because they will think there image doesn’t look good without enhancing it to make it look better
steve
I think I agree with Steve (hurtback) also. White balance, sharpening, red-eye reduction, etc. are all minor enhancements that only make the photo more like the actual image that was taken. I don't think anyone has an issue with those types of enhancements at all.
Using Photoshop or similar programs to cut/paste, change colors completely, add textures, stretch or reshape things in the photo after it's taken.... those are the enhancements that should not be allowed. But again, how do you enforce a rule against such alterations? Unless it's blatently obvious, it would be very difficult to tell. More importantly, how does someone prove they didn't do it? If you make it a rule and someone claims a photo was in violation... how does the submitter prove him/herself that it wasn't done?
As to your offer/idea to have photo lessons given at meetings... I love that idea! I'm sure there would be plenty of interest from both experts and novice/beginners who would like to either learn or showoff what they know.
I'll be sure to bring that up at February's meeting as a suggestion. I might put your name out there for the idea though, so hope you don't mind.
Using Photoshop or similar programs to cut/paste, change colors completely, add textures, stretch or reshape things in the photo after it's taken.... those are the enhancements that should not be allowed. But again, how do you enforce a rule against such alterations? Unless it's blatently obvious, it would be very difficult to tell. More importantly, how does someone prove they didn't do it? If you make it a rule and someone claims a photo was in violation... how does the submitter prove him/herself that it wasn't done?
As to your offer/idea to have photo lessons given at meetings... I love that idea! I'm sure there would be plenty of interest from both experts and novice/beginners who would like to either learn or showoff what they know.
I'll be sure to bring that up at February's meeting as a suggestion. I might put your name out there for the idea though, so hope you don't mind.
whats the first thing you say when you look at an image in a magazine --usually its wow, thats awesome, or something along those lines..
you dont say, hey, that image was enhanced or photoshopped--
its the image thats important, not whether or not something was done to it..
we all know what the pages of playboy look like---each and every image in magazines has some type of enhancement done to it--do we look at that image differently knowing that that model doesnt REALLY look that GOOD IN REAL LIFE ??? No, so why is it different when its an image of a fish, crab , coral or whatever...
its the subject, color,clarity etc that makes us say' wow' not the enhancements done to the image..if the enhancements make the image better--then great..
and should'nt NJRC want to have that 'WOW' image on its home page ???
there should be a required image size and subject matter ( for calendar issue ) these should be the 2 basic things needed for an image--enhancements should'nt make a difference---
steve
you dont say, hey, that image was enhanced or photoshopped--
its the image thats important, not whether or not something was done to it..
we all know what the pages of playboy look like---each and every image in magazines has some type of enhancement done to it--do we look at that image differently knowing that that model doesnt REALLY look that GOOD IN REAL LIFE ??? No, so why is it different when its an image of a fish, crab , coral or whatever...
its the subject, color,clarity etc that makes us say' wow' not the enhancements done to the image..if the enhancements make the image better--then great..
and should'nt NJRC want to have that 'WOW' image on its home page ???
there should be a required image size and subject matter ( for calendar issue ) these should be the 2 basic things needed for an image--enhancements should'nt make a difference---
steve
malulu
NJRC Member
what is the real goal for POTM ?
- do we want the most amazing pics?
- or, we want some fun and possible touching pics?
the former is meant for pros with possible good equipment and good knowledge of photo editing/enhancing skill set.
the later is for almost anyone with even a point and shoot "phone".
once we identify which way we wanted, we can be proceed easily...
I would like to be able to use use some winning pics to make annually calendar if possible. ( can we setup another poll which have no giftcard award to lower the over head of the club expense? but only accept high quality images, if one particularly month did not have anyone to submit, we will use previously month's second winner's image for the year calendar...etc.)
we can still keep the POTM but with side liner to swing the poll if it could.
thx
-david
-BTW:
Steve, welcome back!!
- do we want the most amazing pics?
- or, we want some fun and possible touching pics?
the former is meant for pros with possible good equipment and good knowledge of photo editing/enhancing skill set.
the later is for almost anyone with even a point and shoot "phone".
once we identify which way we wanted, we can be proceed easily...
I would like to be able to use use some winning pics to make annually calendar if possible. ( can we setup another poll which have no giftcard award to lower the over head of the club expense? but only accept high quality images, if one particularly month did not have anyone to submit, we will use previously month's second winner's image for the year calendar...etc.)
we can still keep the POTM but with side liner to swing the poll if it could.
thx
-david
-BTW:
Steve, welcome back!!
Well, when I see a pic like this:
The first thing I think is... That's PHOTOSHOPPED!! I don't think, Wow, that's a great pic!
We've never had anything so absurd as a photo submission before, but an image as bizarre as that could come along at some point and then we have someone arguing that it's not a real photo.
Actually, Sandee reminded me that she had an issue at one time when she submitted her "Mr. Smiles"
(This isn't her actual submission, but she posted it later from her webcam)
That starfish really does have patterns on it that make it look like a smiley face. She said she had that one removed from the contest because it was "too recognizable." I think some people didn't think it was real but as you can see this photo was from a live fish cam (and I've seen it myself live in the fish cam and the markings moved along with the star fish) so it is indeed real. But controversy can easily pop up when anything is strange or there is any doubt whether it's real or not.
Yes, magazines and such do alter their images and perhaps even "fix" flaws like scars or whatever. That's acceptable in that business because people don't care if it's real or not... they just want to see something beautiful. But this isn't a magazine or a business trying to sell something. It's a friendly contest between members to find a favorite candid hobby-related photo. It wouldn't be fair to take 2 pictures of 2 different fish, then cut/paste parts of one onto the other to make it look like 1 new / strange fish... would it? I'd give the person credit for being creative and talented with the software program, but I wouldn't want them to win the contest with a submission like that!
Again, it's practically impossible to detmine whether a photo was altered significantly or not... so this is sort of a moot point.
malulu
NJRC Member
Last time, the Smiling Star fish got removed - was due to it had been posted in this forum before, and it is NOT due to "too recognizable."
since we are on this topic, the not revealing original submitter rule, i really don't think it is matter we know whom submitted it or not, but some would think otherwise... that is another matter we may need to address.
since we are on this topic, the not revealing original submitter rule, i really don't think it is matter we know whom submitted it or not, but some would think otherwise... that is another matter we may need to address.
I think people r wrong thinking if someone has a dslr they r automatically in the money. Point n shoots can take a great pic too. 1 month I recieved a majority of votes for potm with an iphone pic. I do have a dslr now. But ive gotten great pics in the past with a 220$ cannon elph. Actually I won 1 or 2 potm's with that point n shoot, None with the dslr yet.
I would vote to display only the pic , no words. And allow minor enhancements, sharpening, balance etc. After winner is chosen text will b shown about what they used if they even include it in the submission
I would vote to display only the pic , no words. And allow minor enhancements, sharpening, balance etc. After winner is chosen text will b shown about what they used if they even include it in the submission
malulu
NJRC Member
it seems that:
- we don't have enough people to chime in for more ideas?
- we don't have enough time to finalized the finding
- we don't have enough time to get them to vote
hence this Feb POTM will as as last one no new rules yet.
please continue to shout with more ideas...!
thx
- we don't have enough people to chime in for more ideas?
- we don't have enough time to finalized the finding
- we don't have enough time to get them to vote
hence this Feb POTM will as as last one no new rules yet.
please continue to shout with more ideas...!
thx
howze01
NJRC Member
I think that just by using our eyes and common sense we can see overly shopped pics. When I've submitted, I pretty much always crop and adjust exposure in Picnic. I don't see any reason to ban stuff like that.
I also say just the picture. It's not an essay contest, it's a picture contest and I think the photo should win on it's own merits. I think there's also the issue of anonimity too. With too many details people can figure out who's pic it is.
Just my .02
I also say just the picture. It's not an essay contest, it's a picture contest and I think the photo should win on it's own merits. I think there's also the issue of anonimity too. With too many details people can figure out who's pic it is.
Just my .02
I think that we are splitting hairs here. When I shoot I use a custom white balance, but the camera does all the work. Does that mean that it enhanced??? No it does not. As most people know the blues will throw off the colors and you need to adjust the picture to get the true colors out. I would hope that people may make a modification to make the picture look like real life and not try to make it better.
I personally want people to see pictures of my tank as if they were standing in front of it.
So if a person fixed white balance or even just brightens it up a bit for exposure then I don't think that it is a big deal. A pic taken with a cheaper point and shoot may not be able to take the same pic as a high end dslr.
I personally want people to see pictures of my tank as if they were standing in front of it.
So if a person fixed white balance or even just brightens it up a bit for exposure then I don't think that it is a big deal. A pic taken with a cheaper point and shoot may not be able to take the same pic as a high end dslr.
thanks david...
why not just run the Feb POTM for now till more ideas/rules are ironed out
nothing can really be done or changed without permission from the BOD...
steve
malulu
NJRC Member
Hi,
I am very sorry to say that I did not get a chance to work on the suggestions related tasks, hence this month's (March 2012) POTM will be using the old rules PLUS a new restriction to only accept up to TWO images for each member's submission.
I will get to the suggestion related tasks some time next week.
Apology for the delayed.
Best Regards,
-David
I am very sorry to say that I did not get a chance to work on the suggestions related tasks, hence this month's (March 2012) POTM will be using the old rules PLUS a new restriction to only accept up to TWO images for each member's submission.
I will get to the suggestion related tasks some time next week.
Apology for the delayed.
Best Regards,
-David