Some Questions: (Ich, QT, Salt, etc...)

[Subliminal]

So, I've got the ich. Bad.

I knew I had it, but was hoping the ol' garlic would take care of it.

Anyway, here's my deal:

My 55g must have it bad. I've got 2 clowns and 2 damsels and one of each is showing some bad ich.

I could really care less about the damsels at this points (sad to say), but getting them out of the tank seems pretty important to stop the life cycle of the parasite. The clowns I think I can get out no problem, as they always stay by a frogspawn and I'll just get them when they aren't looking.

This weekend a guy is supposed to finally be coming to pick up my fw fish. This means my 29g is going to be ripe for the picking.

I also have a 10g tank that's just sitting on the floor under the 29g.

I think I'll use the tank to tank method and use the 10g tank and probably a rubbermaid container of some sort.

I'd like to set up the 29g with a sand bed and some LR and start getting it ready for inhabitants while I have the main tank fallow...for what sounds like the next few months.

So, anyway, I read and re-read the thread where Ed was talking about his ich and Carlo outlined the whole process of moving them back and forth every 48 hrs...and I think I just need the following:

1. A small heater that would work in a 10g tank. Actually, scratch that, I don't have a heater in the 29g currently. I should probably get a heater sized for the 29g and just have it turned down real low for the 10g's in the meantime.

2. Either a rubbermaid or another 10g.

3. Some form of little filter or powerhead to move the water around.

4. Some live sand

5. Some live rock


Also as an aside, I've got a salt question: I've been using petco brand (aquatic gardens or somesuch brand) salt since I started my tank. I'd kind of like to move to a more universally sold/recommended brand like IO or Reef Crystals, but I wanted to make sure it was ok to switch brands of salt, or if I should just stick with what I've been using, which seems to work fine.

Anyway, that's it. Maybe a little pat on the back as I start the process or a word of advice...or any of the above items...would be very helpful.

 

[debfife]

I would think moving them between two tanks would give the fish added stress that they don't need. Why not just put them in one tank and treat them?

 

[Phyl]

*pat pat pat*

I can't help you with the above method, but the fish that you've got left are very hardy and provided you can start breaking the cycle they should be just fine.

While you may choose to change salt at some point in time, I would personally think that keeping the fish under as little stress as possible will help them to fight off the ich.

While hypo'ing a tang I did notice that it got worse (far worse) before it got better. Don't know if the method you'll be following will have the same pattern, but I just wanted to let you know that it could get worse before it gets better.

Good luck getting through it.

 

[jazzsam]

I would think moving them between two tanks would give the fish added stress that they don't need. Why not just put them in one tank and treat them?

I second that. Moving them a lot WILL stress them out a lot.

 

[Subliminal]

Huh. Ok, so what would be more recommended? The hypo and copper method or..?

*confused*

 

[pmac90]

QT seems to be the best way. some things I mention may be debated.... but.

setup the QT tank with water only! No sand, No Rock... only some PVC pieces for the fish to hide. maybe use a small filter with a USED sponge from your system. light isn't that important, feed only what they'll eat. keep the tank clean. and treat with copper. I think that's the gist of it. been a while. lol

 

[Subliminal]

This was the method I was going to employ...

To get rid of the parasites is a two part process. One part is to rid the fish themselves of the parasites and the second part is to rid the tank (complete system) also.

To rid the tank (complete system) you have to leave it fallow (without fish to host the parasite) for 2 months. Without a fish host the parasite it can't complete it's "cycle" and will die off (this requires a lot of patience and discipline).

To rid the fish of ich you have a few choices. You can treat with copper in a hospital tank or treat with hyposalinity (again in a hospital tank) or use the tank to tank transfer method. Some fish are less tolerable to copper then others. Also some fish don't do real well in hypo either. I myself prefer the tank to tank transfer method. I've tweaked the T to T transfer method and have a following on RC and other boards with people using it. Here's an overview of the process.

You will need a minimum of 2 QT tanks and HOB sponge filter (or other filter). The type of filter isn't a big deal and servers more to oxygenate the water then really "filter it". The process my method exploits is the fact that the parasites will only stay attached to the fish for 3 to 7 days before falling off into the substrate and rock to reproduce and start the next phase of it's cycle. What we want to accomplish is to let the parasite drop off the fish but never allow it to reattach to the fish. We do this by:
1. Put fish in QT tank 1
2. Move fish from QT tank 1 to QT tank 2 in 48 hours
3. Empty and thoroughly clean tank 1 including filter system. Let airdry until you use it again.
4. Move fish from QT tank 2 to QT tank 1 (now clean) in 48 hours.
5. Empty and thoroughly clean tank 2 including filter system. Let airdry until you use it again.
6. Move fish from QT tank 1 to QT tank 2 in 48 hours.
7. After 48 hours in QT tank 2 move the fish to it's new destination.

Basically, you put a fish in a clean QT tank for 2 days. Every 2 days you move it to another clean tank. At the end of 8 days all the parasites will have fallen off the fish (3 to 7 day cycle) but since each fish was never in the same tank long enough for the parasite to reattach it will come out "clean". This works for marine ich and velvet (much worse then ich and a fast killer).

To do this process you need 2 sets of tanks, 2 heaters and 2 filters. I myself don't use any sponges or media in the filters (mostly to aerate the water). Since the fish get completely new water ever 2 days there isn't any worries about testing the water. It's important to make sure the water in each tank matches so you don't stress the fish on the move. For example make sure the temp, pH and salinity match. You can use 10g or 20g long tanks depending on size of the fish to be treated.

You can of course use more then 2 sets of tanks. For example if you have 3 tanks you could start one today and start the next tank tomorrow (staggered). You will have 2 tanks with fish in them and always have one tank (clean and dry) to use as the new replacement tank. Same with having 3, 4 or 5 totals tanks (just hold one back as the clean tank and stagger the start up of each tank). Don't put sand or live rock or anything porious in the QT tanks. You don't want anything the parasite will "stick to". You can and should drop a couple pieces of PVC tubing or elbows in the tank for hiding places. Any PVC used in the tank needs to be cleaned and allowed to dry out before using again.

The tricky part is getting all the fish out of the tank! The other obstacle is that you need to leave the main system fallow (without fish) for 2 months. You'll end up needing yet another tank to put the fish in after they get done the QT process while you wait for the main system to rid itself of ich. This tank needs to be setup clean and you don't want to use any sand or rock from your system or you would contaminate the holding system from the start.

The holding system (after QT) doesn't really need to be a tank at all. I've used 32 and 44 gallon brute trash cans with a canister filter attached and a powerhead and some household light near the tank. Keep an eye on ammonia, nitrite and nitrates in this tank.

It's a major pain and undertaking to rid your system of ich. The best method (ideally) is to never allow the parasite to enter the system in the first place. You can do this by using the method above for all new fish arrivals (8 days in the T to T QT method). You technically should also QT any non fish for 2 months before allowing it to enter your tank. This includes corals, sand, rock etc. The reason this last piece is important is that the parasite could be attached to a piece of coral you pickup from somebody else. Once in your tank if it successfully attaches to a fish the ich cycle has started in your tank.

With all the above said you can also try and wait it out. The ich parasite has been studied very, very well. It has been shown that after enough cycles (attach to fish, drop off, multiply, reattach to fish) it will die off in your tank in approximately 11 months if no new ich has been introduced. This is where both UV and Ozone can have a big impact. A properly setup UV system can help tremendously in keeping the parasites from reproducing at a fast pace. If the water is flowing slow enough (check your UV docs) it will kill off any parasites going through the unit. The key is to run the UV unit stand alone and not hooked into the sump. You want the UV unit to pull water from the middle of the tank at the bottom (parasites live mostly in the substrate). Ozone is also good at killing off the parasites and no special setup is needed for this. Other methods that are usefull in controlling ich are to syphon the substrate as often as you can. If you can do this every couple of days then do so. Just top off with new salt water.

If you can't let your main system go fallow then you pretty much have to try the above items as best you can to get to the point of letting the parasite die off. Just make sure to QT any new arrivals so you don't introduce new parasites. If you can net a fish with obvious parasites attached to it you can give them a dip in methylene blue.

All the above is just one way to combat this. It was also just an overview but should contain enough info to use. If anyone has questions or wants more information let me know and maybe I can write up a more detailed instruction set/article on the tank to tank transfer method and uses of methylene blue in QT procedures (what it treats, ways to use it, etc).

This is only one way to treat the fish and other methods are copper and hyposalinity.

Carlo

 

[Carlo]

I've used copper and hypo for many years until I came up with this style of treatment which is actually an improvement on an old idea.

Here's some supplemental information why I like this method. It's very biased so keep this in mind when reading it.

No copper poisoning or having to keep copper at exact levels.

No messing with salt levels and having to worry about the calibration of your hydrometer or refractometer being off at the 1.009 mark.

Not having to worry about having a strain of parasite that isn't affected by hypo (getting more common).

Both copper and hypo do STRESS the fish out A LOT. The fish are in an unnatural environment water wise.

The fish are going to be in this same water for an extended period of time so you need to test the water, have good bacteria available to start off with maybe from a sponge filter. How many of you have a sponge in your system?

Some types of fish can't take copper or hypo treatments. Even fish that can take it can have shortened life spans because of copper or hypo damage. I'm aware that a lot of fish have already been exposed to copper through the distribution channel but if I don't need to do it then I won't.

No matter how careful you are, you have to constantly stay on the QT tanks to keep the proper hypo or copper levels as well as general water quality. If the copper or hypo levels go "out of bounds" you MUST start all over again.

Fish die in copper and/or hypo treatments. It's almost unheard of for a fish to die from being moved to a different tank unless you do it with gross negligence.

It's far less stressfull to just move a fish then to expose them to hypo or copper for extended periods of time.

T2T is much quicker at reducing the parasites. 8 Days total is all it takes. This to me is much more important. Letting your fish have these parasites on them is cruel. One of the marine biologists at Adventure Aquarium gave me a good analogy when I was working there. Just imagine yourself with hundreds/thousands of mosquitos on you for days at a time and you can't get them off and you'll have an idea what your fish is going through. Imagine what it would be like to have so many mosquitos biting you that you could die from it!

T2T method works on any type of fish. The same procedure can/should be applied to rid ich from fish with it or when you purchase new fish.

T2T method works on ich, marine velvet, black velvet and probably brooklynella so it's a great way to QT fish and make sure these diseases don't ever make it into the tank.

The T2T method has some built in "slack time". Although I mentioned to do the transfer every 2 days (preferred) if you forget you can do it on the 3rd day. Just continue 2 days after this tank transfer. It's still safe to go on the 3rd day because of the way the life cycle is. But going past this is pushing it.

One of the really nice things about the T2T method is that if a fish comes down with a secondary infection you can add meds to the tank to treat the infection. This is a dangerous thing to do if you are doing hypo or copper. One person I was doing this procedure for had a blue hippo tang that was in terrible shape from ich. It developed a secondary infection and had the worse case of popeye I ever saw. Since we weren't using copper or hypo to rid the fish of ich I was able to medicate the tank and help both of these problems.

No matter what you do you will need to capture and transfer the fish into a QT tank for some type of treatment. So that is at least one tank transfer. All I do is 3 more. I myself would rather keep my fish in clean water every 2 days then let them sit in "stale" copper water for weeks getting poisoned but that's just my take. It just seems like a more natural/non invasive way to treat the fish.

In the quoted section Subliminal did I only stuck to the basics. I actually do more then this. For example on receiving a fish I give them a good bath in Meth. Blue and then do the T2T QT. If on the other hand I'm treating a fish I know has ich I will do the Meth Bath also in the middle of each transfer and depending on the severity of the ich will sometimes just add meth to the 1st tank. While the Meth Blue isn't really needed it can help to get some of the parasites off the fish faster. Meth Blue also has a calming affect on the fish which is good when they are stressed from the parasites.

Carlo

 

[dkop0978]

I'm having the same problem (I believe it's ich). I'm down a copperband, a tang, and looks like I'm going to lose an anthias overnight. It broke out over two weeks ago and for the most part my cleaner shrimp and wrasse took care of it. Then all over a sudden yesterday I noticed a really bad breakout on the tang. That night I went home and the tang was dead and the anthias has been swimming vertically up and down, will not swim horizontally. Also, I noticed bigger white dots on all my live rock and my snail shells.

I don't know what to do at this point because it seems like everything is infected. It was too late tonight for me to run out and pick up some Kick-Ich, which has worked very well on a bunch of my friends tanks. I really didn't want to treat chemically but I guess I have to at this point.

 

[Phyl]

DKOP, Do you have any photos of infected fish? Can you describe it? Sugar grains on the fish? White powdery look? Those things on your snail look like egg sacs from another type of snail... what kinds of snails do you have in your tank? The thing about ich is that because it is cyclical it looks like it went away and then when it comes back (cycle) they've multiplied and are now WAY worse. Personally I've never seen Ich take over so fast that it killed a fish in so little time. The cycle usually takes a bit longer, IME. I've had a fish get so bad that I really thought it would die (it was in hypo at the time). It was completely covered in ich. And that fish made a grand recovery through hypo. But it was REALLY hard to watch.

That happened in a hypo treatment where the cycle had to break at a certain stage, but during the process many of them made it to the "on the fish stage". Not to mention the fact that it takes DAYS to drop the SG and they don't break the cycle until it hits the bottom of the SG range (1.009).

One of the problems with hypo (& probably copper) is that you REALLY have to watch evaperation and ammo. You need to be changing water nearly constantly while maintaining levels. Not impossible to do, but an added measure of "maintenance".

Subliminal--

I'd personally like to have you run 2 tanks. One with hypo and one with T2T and see which one improved faster! It sounds like the T2T method would actually work faster than the hypo (and I'm not fond of copper). But that's just the researcher in me somewhere!

The hardest part on the transfer of fish from one system to another is parameter changes. When transfering from T2T, hopefully you're using one water source (mix the water once in a large container and use it to refill the tanks). Every day top that off with fresh water & more salt. This will allow you to keep the parameters fairly stable through the changes (better than mixing a new batch of salt every 2 days).

I'd drop the SG a couple of points (1.022 if you were running at 1.025) as the lower SG is easier on the fish. Not too far though as they can't take *radical* fast shifts in SG very well.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. If all of the fish are now showing signs, it is definitely time to do something about it. Remember, that your main has to stay fallow for 8 weeks to break the cycle in there ("they" used to say 6, but I think 8 is safer).

 

[Carlo]

dkop0978,

From your description it sounds like your fish have it pretty bad. Just going by your description it sounds like the fish have what is probably a very, very bad gill infection. The "vertical" swimming is a good sign of serious gill infection. They are having a hard time respirating.

I hate to say this but IMHO you will probably loose more fish if you don't act quickly (even then it might be too late).

A course of action you can take. Get to your LFS as quick as possible and pick up a small bottle of Methylene Blue. Get a hospital tank setup with same salinity as display (not higher or lower), same pH and temp. If possible you could even take water from your display tank for the hospital tank. Add a powerhead if you have one available and make sure it is breaking the surface of the water, get the filter working on the hospital tank but leave it empty of media (no sponges, charcoal or anything else). Add enough Methylene Blue to the water to get it a nice semi-dark shade of blue. Move the fish to this hospital tank.

The Methylene Blue will do a couple of things for you. It's an oxidizer so this will help with O2. The tank itself with powerhead and empty filter running should be keeping the water at a higher O2 level then your display tank. The darker water color will help lower the stress level of the fish. Methylene Blue also has something of a tranquilizing effect on the fish.

The MB itself won't get rid of ich but will help lower the stress of the fish and help them with their breathing. MB will KILL OFF any bacteria in the tank or filters so it's important not to have a good seeded filter in there. The color of the tank (semi-dark blue) will probably disturb you since it doesn't look natural but don't let that alarm you. I will tell you that the MB will stain the silicone of the hospital tank with a blue color.

Let the fish stay in this MB treated tank for at least 12 hours. Then start doing 50% water changes. You'll find the tank will stay "blue tinted" through numerous water changes but that's OK. I'd suggest doing a 50% water change at 4-6 hour intervals or whatever your schedule will allow for the first 48 hours.

It would be very helpful to have a lot of water made up ahead of time with the correct pH, temp and salinity for this purpose. If you don't have it pre-made then just do the best you can but make sure the temp, salinity and pH matches the hospital tank.

After 48 hours you can try my T2T method (you already did the 1st one with 3 more to go at 48 hour intervals) or you can move to copper treatment if that's your preferred treatment option.

Carlo

 

[Subliminal]

Convicts are gone.

29 gallon tank is available

I cleaned out my 10 gallon and added salt to 1.022 and am now circulating and heating. Time to try and get the fishies soon.

Unfortunately, I ran out of salt so I could only mix enough for about 7 gallons.

The 4 fish are about 1 inch long each, though, so that should be plenty. I thoroughly washed some pcv elbows to stick in there for territory.

I need to get sand and rock for the 29g, but I might just buy it at the store when i buy salt...I need to get this stuff going so it can be pretty much steady by the time I go on vacation (June 7th).

Ahhh, the fun!

 

[Phyl]

Sub... I meant to drop the salinity over a few days down to 1.022, you don't want to shock them with change. Use water from your main system if you need to make up the difference in the water (for the initial tank setup, after that use new water). Better to take the water from the main, keeping things consistant and drop the salinity with water changes (or topoff) over a few days. No radical changes in the environment for the fishies. Good luck!

 

[Subliminal]

Roger that, ghost rider.

Had to take all of the rocks out of the main tank AGAIN.

Man...hate learning the hard way, sometimes...

 

[Carlo]

Just a comment on what Phyl mentioned about taking water from the main system. If you do intend to do the T2T method don't use system water at all unless you have a UV that has a low flow and will kill off any parasites. The reason being is that you can transfer parasites with the water into the QT tank and that could throw off the days. The 8 days and 4 transfers assumes fresh clean water is being used with no possibility of introducing parasites into the tank.

If you are going to treat with copper then it will not matter as much if you use system water.

Just a personal opinion and not an attack but I don't really agree with dropping the salinity at all regardless of what method you use unless it's hypo. I'm a firm believer in running natural sea water salinity all the time (also a reason I don't care for hypo). It's not just the salinity you are changing but the chemical balance of the water and all the trace elements. Surely going down to 1.022 isn't that much but if your hydrometer or refractometer is off to begin with you may think you system is at 1.025 and it could be at 1.020 and then you intentionally drop the salinity and start getting into a territory that really isn't that good for the fish long term. The second reason is that you just don't want to abruptly change the salinity but will want to work at lowering it as Phyl suggested over a couple of days. It just seems like a headache you don't need to worry about when treating ich.

I have heard that recommended a couple of times before by other people to and always ask why? Most of the time they think it's to reduce stress levels of the fish but it actually works out the oppsite. Now on the otherhand it can allow more O2 in the water but I don't think the trade off is worth it. It might not be a bad idea to lower the temperature of the QT tank by a couple of degrees after you get them in it which will also allow more O2 to be present in the water without changing the salinity.

Any fish with ich is going to be very stressed. I'd try and concentrate on getting rid of the parasites as quick as possible and try doing stuff that helps with the stress like Methylene Blue and otherwise trying to keep stress levels low. If possible QT only one fish per tank and keep the tank in somewhat darker (non bright light) for a while.

If you do the T2T method you probably won't see any parasites left on the fish by the second tank change and will notice a big improvement in the way the fish is acting. He/She will seem more like it's old self.

Carlo

PS just re-read your first message and noticed you said you needed to get more live sand and rock. I didn't reread the thread but you don't want to use rock or sand in the QT tanks.

 

[Phyl]

The only reason I would use water from the main is to START the tanks. After that you do need to use all newly mixed water. My concern was the 7g he has right now at 1.022. I'd like to see that match the main display at the start. I've modified my post above to reflect that since it was somewhat misleading.

I've read that it helps the fish to breath better (especially when they've got ich bad) to have the salinity slightly lowered. I don't think .002-.003 is all that drastic of a change. Chances are your refractometer isn't off by all that much and a swing arm is more likely to be high than low to begin with.

 

[Subliminal]

Ok, here's an update on the state of the union...er..tanks.

I broke down my old 29g freshie, and gave fish, rocks, gravel, driftwood to a fellow enthusiast.

I mixed 10g of water to about 1.023 and filled a 10g tank. I bought a heater for the tank and stuck a powerhead I had in it. I also threw in about 3 2.5 inch white pcv connectors. For hiding spots. That tank is good to go for 48 hrs.

I then had to take every rock out of my 55g except for like 2 to get those clowns and damsels out. I'm almost thinking the clowns are going to stay, the damsels need to go. I don't really want them anymore.

I bought 40 lbs of live sand (caribsea or arag-alive or maybe even one of each) and stuck in my 29g with fresh water and a seaclone skimmer, 100 watt heater, and my old emporer 400 to move the water around and for a sponge/carbon setup.

I actually spent a bunch of money on fishie stuff today. I ended up with $80 in live sand, $62 in instant ocean, a new 10g tank (for second qt tank), 2 heaters (one for 10g one for 29g) and some silversides for my anemone.

Ok, so here's my plan:

in 48 hrs (less now) I'll switch the fish to the second 10g tank for another 48 hours, and then do that for...I don't remember...8 days or whatever, and then the little guys go into the 29g.

I'm not sure how to get rock in there. I'm kind of gunshy from all this and i don't want to put LR in that might bring ich...

No ich, ever again.

How/where is the best way to get some nice LR w/o qt'ing it for 8 weeks? Is it even possible?

Thanks for all the help, guys.

 

[Carlo]

Phyl, got what you meant on the main tank water. That makes more sense now and I do agree.

Subliminal, If you want to take a drive to Bordentown (not to far from ya) you could bring your rock with ya and I'll exchange it for good rock that is parasite free. It'll come right out of my system so bring some buckets and we'll keep it wet so you can drop it in your tank and avoid any type of cycle.
You could do the same with some sand but I don't think it's needed since you purchased live sand. Just send me a PM for my address and phone number.

I've got two batches of rock in QT with one ready in about 10 days so I won't miss the rock taken out of the system and if it can help you get back up quickly it's worth it.

Carlo

 

[Subliminal]

Carlos,

Most of my rock has my coral in it, and I'm keeping the big tank w/o fish for a while, so I think I'm just going to keep all that rock in there.

It's new rock I need to get, really...just don't want to wait a few months to put it in.

 

[Carlo]

Maybe I'm a little confused so let me ask you?

Is the 29g just a temp housing for the fish after you get them out of QT? Is the idea to let the 55g go fallow (without fish) for 6-8 weeks to let the parasites die off?

If the above is true, is the intention to get rock/sand for the 29g to make sure you have a good environment for the fish until the 55 is ready for the fish again?

Carlo