The danger of NSW.

[Sponge]

This thread is getting silly. Do you guys realize you are arguing semantics. Of course reefs are near beaches. (Or would we all feel better if we called them near the place water and land meet). There are thousands of them. Just generally not near PUBLIC beaches. Is that what we are discussing... how many public beaches have reefs... I don’t think so. Also. I use man made salt and RODI water exclusively, primarily out of ease of use and consistency. But certainly there is bacteria and unknown beneficial properties in NSW that I can’t duplicate. and clearly it is usable. (Many tanks all over the world have proved that, both public and private) And clearly where you collect it does matter. I tried to stay out of this discussion simply because I don’t use NSW. But it doesn't take a marine biologist to recognize that there are both benefits and down sides to NSW. This is a great topic for discussion on this forum but can we please keep it topical and share experiences and less simple uneducated opinion. Come on everyone. We are WAY better than this. Now let’s take a deep breath. And discuss.
Happy reefing all

 

[amado]

Yes I agree that’s how reef use to be. But because of pollution and global warming
Corals can’t live in that water anymore. You have to get on a boat and go where there are no humans to see corals and even there the corals are dying.

My point so that we don’t countine down this rabbit hole. The stability these corals need can’t be provided with water from nj coast line.
You may see patches of corals here and there but they are not reefs. When you see a real live reef you understand the difference right away.

The same way you can’t drink water from a lake near your house Is the same way you shouldn’t use water from the nj shore for your tank.

 

[Sponge]

FYI. For those who care to know... (of course below is not referring to our beaches hahaha but very interesting just the same)

The Mid-Atlantic Fishery Council recently voted in favor of a measure to preserve 38,000 miles of deep sea coral habitats off the Eastern Seaboard that are instrumental to New Jersey, according to officials at Monmouth University’s Urban Coast institute
The coral habitats are roughly about the size of Virginia, and serve as the most valuable and productive canyons off the Jersey Coast, according to Tony MacDonald, director of UCI
There’s a whole series of canyons off of the shelf where we find these corals and other sea life,” McDonald said.
McDonald explained that the corals are very sensitive and slow-growing.
“You can have things that are called Bubblegum Corals that can grow up to 15 feet tall and take 500 to 1,000 years to grow, so they tend to grow along these very productive areas, these nutrient-rich areas along the shelf. What you really want to do is protect them from fishing, that is bottom-dragging,” McDonald said.

 

[mickeysreef <*))))<]

Of course reefs are near beaches.

Thanks buddy. I don't know what all that was all about.

There's a lot of misconceptions in this hobby, some of it is folklore and some of it is commercial noise from retailers and manufacturers.

 

[john90009]

Just throwing my 2 cents in. While there are reefs and some calcium carbonate building corals off our coast. I for sure would not think about putting our water in a tank with corals I have spent hundreds of dollars on a frag. In college I had learned about sediment masking and since our beaches are mainly comprised of silica sands it may hinder the growth rate of corals since it contains more silicates.

 

[Roca]

There is some data available after a quick Google search but the collection sites seem to be more on bay sides and inlets where the salinity seems to peak at (site 2714A at cape may) 29-31 ppm which explains low KH in the 5-6 range. But even if it were at 35ppm that would only bump it like 1KH

NJDEP-Division of Water Monitoring and Standards

New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection-Wreck Pond

www.nj.gov

At this point would be where I would suggest again to post some water parameter values for NSW from those who use it as well as how exactly it is collected. I'd be happy to collect some water off the surf at various beaches along the shore as I visit and at least check salinity, KH, Ca, and Mg. I would guess nitrate and phosphate would read 0 but hey, what's 15 more mins to check. However, I'm an hour away from the closest ocean side beach and leaving the state for the holiday so that isn't happening soon. However if you have a bucket or drum sitting around with the stuff just go check and post. I don't think I'm invested enough to do an ICP on it but if I were using NSW I would submit one before filling the tank with colorful expensive little nubs or polyps.

 

[Romanhawk]

Why so contentious? Why do you have to be right and show everyone?

I got off R2R for this same reason.

I like the discussion - not the content. Give us all a break.

 

[ecam]

I think a great idea would be to run a test
north vs south.
ASW vs NSW. Maybe get a 10 gallon tank and run it strictly on that source water
Thoughts

 

[Deleted member 27248]

I will test a sample from ocean city beach today for curiosity haha.my main concern would be the pollutants and bacteria that we don’t test for, and why I always get a sinus infection swimming in the summer months at the beach. :/

 

[amado]

So I will remove myself from this thread.
My intentions is just to have a conversation no be right.
I wish we could go out to the shore and see corals but that’s not the world we live in.
Yes there use to be miles of reefs in the Caribbean and now it’s just one little 10x 10ft reef instead of miles. You see one sea turtle instead of hundreds.

 

[MadReefer]

I used to live 1/2 mile from the bay and always thought about but never did because I was worried pollution. I have heard people taking from the bay and putting the water in a large brute barrel. They kept in the dark and placed a circulation pump raised about 6 inches so crude would settle below and then used the water above and dispose of the rest. Also, people in here with boats go out miles and collect water and used it immediately with no adverse affects from what I have seen. For me will stick with making my own water.

 

[ecam]

So I will remove myself from this thread.
My intentions is just to have a conversation no be right.
I wish we could go out to the shore and see corals but that’s not the world we live in.
Yes there use to be miles of reefs in the Caribbean and now it’s just one little 10x 10ft reef instead of miles. You see one sea turtle instead of hundreds.

@amado there is nothing wrong with being a devils advocate. It’s what foster growth and knowledge. Keep it up. As long as it’s civil which this has been

 

[erics210]

The beach is the skimmer of the world. This the worse water you can use.
When you see natural reef in the ocean they are 3hrs away from the beach. I have snorkel the Great Barrier Reef and it was a 3hr boat ride to the dive site. Even in the Caribbean you have 1hr -2hr boat ride to see a reef

I dove in Fuji. Maybe a 5-10 minute boat ride to Noel's Wall.
Awesome diving just 40 feet from my hut doorstep.

NOT my pics and by the way- water was SOOO much crisper the days I dove.

 

[mickeysreef <*))))<]

Just want to throw in there that the point of my original post wasn't to necessarily use NSW. But that for those interested, one of the dangers of NSW is to collect a sample with ich in the freeswimming stage. And that brackish water found near the shore is in theory, NSW but in hyposalinity. That there have been studies that demonstrate ich cannot survive hyposalinity in freeswimming stage and so you could gather that brackish water without fear of adding ich to your tank. Of course the water would not have all the salt or other elements necessary for a reef tank as brackish water is NSW mixed with a fresh water source. Those elements could be later added via salt or dosing.

I know there was a lot of other discussion but that was the main idea behind my post, "The danger of NSW"

 

[Trio91]

The only thing I would say when it comes to dealing with NSW, would be that as hobbyists , we should take the extra step of acclimating any new fish and corals to a NSW set up.

Assuming that we're not getting them directly from the ocean, I feel that ready made sea water may be too "pure" compared to nsw for our store brought fish n corals.

 

[Trio91]

I'm also assuming that most of what you see in the pet store has lived their whole lives in a glass box and has been living in a ready made sea water environment.

 

[Paul B]

Great discussions guys.
@Paul B we need you on this one

Why don't you just ask me on my thread? Contrary to popular opinion I don't get all these posts through osmosis. I occasionally pass through and my ears tickle when my name is mentioned.

What a silly thread. We should be asking, "Why would we use ASW from a box".
Where do we think our fish and corals came from? Mars! I have been to many of the places where our creatures come from and many of them are polluted harbors.
Just go to an ocean beach.

The ocean is not that water you see off Orchard Beach. I dove there many times for many years. There is an awful lot of life under there but there is also way to much other stuff in that water. Coppertone sun tan products won't affect your tank nor will gas or oil which float and you would see it. The bacteria they close beaches for also will not hurt your tank but it may not be great for us. Most of the stuff you don't want in your tank comes from run off from the roads. Roads are made from asphalt and asphalt is a man made product made from all sorts of things we may not want in our tank. It has a petroleum base. All those street drains empty directly into the sea with no processing.

I used Long Island Sound water in my tank for the first couple of decades but real Ocean water surrounds New York so now, thats what I take. Actually I live on the Sound but I am 80 miles from Manhattan so the water isn't bad here.

Go to an ocean beach. There is some in Brooklyn and collect water. Not in the East River which is not a river, it is an estuary.
Or come to Long Island. WE are surrounded my ocean. You can also bring those test kits and put them in a dumpster behind McDonalds because real Ocean water needs no testing.
My tank is now 100% beach water and in 12 weeks it will be running for 50 years. No problems yet but maybe in 51 years problems will creep up.

 

[Paul B]

Corals don’t grow in waters off the coast of New Jersey.

Actually they do. Many of them but not many species. Even off Orchard beach in the Bronx which isn't exactly Tahiti (where I also dove quite a lot)
There is a type of soft coral that grows. It has tiny polyps and is not very attractive. It won't live in a tank for any amount of time as I have tried a few times. But the water here and in a tropical tank is 40 degrees different in the summer and much more in the winter.

Also off Huckelberry Island just to the east of Orchard beach the bottom is covered in large, beautiful anemones. They also won't live in a tropical tank for the same reasons.
What a lot of people don't know is that the northern waters, such as New York are thousands of times healthier and full of life than the tropical seas which are basically dead.
Hold up a glass of water from the tropics and you will see nothing. Maybe a bikini top. Hold up a glass of New York water and you will see a multitude of life. There will be all sorts of things swimming in there. Do you know what that is? I't life.

Virtually all the great fisheries of the world are in Northern waters. There are no huge trawlers in the tropics because there aren't that many fish. The water is clear so you can see all of them.
Here in New York where I have spent many hours underwater the visibility is measured in inches so you don't see much. But if the water was clear, you would see vast schools of fish. The fish know we are in the water so they keep away as they know they may become flounder stuffed with crab meat with a side of rice.


About turtles. I recently dove off Hawaii and all I saw was turtles. There are many more turtles than I saw in 1974 when I dove there. The reason for this is the lack of sharks. I don't know if the people ate all the sharks or what. But they are replaced with turtles.

Bora Bora in Tahiti


I also recently dove in Mustique in the Caribbean, again many turtles. They were all over the place. I know they are listed as endangered, but maybe they counted wrong. At least I hope so because I love turtles.



The water is murky not because it is dirty. It is dark due to life which is living in the mud particles suspended in the water and churned up by tides.
Here where I go crabbing and collect mud for my tank you can see the bottom. At low tide, like here sometimes it stinks. That is not because of pollution, it is because the life that gets caught there at low tide dies. The water here rises and ebbs 8' every 12 hours. That moving water churns up the bottom and over millennium has converted the sand to mud.

The water in the tropics move a couple of inches at most. If you let northern water settle for an hour, it becomes crystal clear but you will still see the life swimming through it.

Here is my tank with 100% natural water. Virtually all the paired fish are spawning. Nothing was quarantined or medicated, not even the 30 year old fish.
The water is gin clear and I didn't add any gin.
If I shut the pumps and wait a minute, I will see all sorts of life swimming towards the surface including baby fish that hatch all the time. It is a mixed reed with many SPS, LPS, gorgonians etc. Everyone here who has a 50 year old tank with all water from a box, raise your hand.........Higher

 

[MadReefer]

If I started with NSW I would not mind. But all the money I dished out am afraid of killing fish and corals.
I have a 2 or 3 gallon AIO maybe I should experiment with that.

 

[amado]

Actually they do. Many of them but not many species. Even off Orchard beach in the Bronx which isn't exactly Tahiti (where I also dove quite a lot)
There is a type of soft coral that grows. It has tiny polyps and is not very attractive. It won't live in a tank for any amount of time as I have tried a few times. But the water here and in a tropical tank is 40 degrees different in the summer and much more in the winter.

Also off Huckelberry Island just to the east of Orchard beach the bottom is covered in large, beautiful anemones. They also won't live in a tropical tank for the same reasons.
What a lot of people don't know is that the northern waters, such as New York are thousands of times healthier and full of life than the tropical seas which are basically dead.
Hold up a glass of water from the tropics and you will see nothing. Maybe a bikini top. Hold up a glass of New York water and you will see a multitude of life. There will be all sorts of things swimming in there. Do you know what that is? I't life.

Virtually all the great fisheries of the world are in Northern waters. There are no huge trawlers in the tropics because there aren't that many fish. The water is clear so you can see all of them.
Here in New York where I have spent many hours underwater the visibility is measured in inches so you don't see much. But if the water was clear, you would see vast schools of fish. The fish know we are in the water so they keep away as they know they may become flounder stuffed with crab meat with a side of rice.


About turtles. I recently dove off Hawaii and all I saw was turtles. There are many more turtles than I saw in 1974 when I dove there. The reason for this is the lack of sharks. I don't know if the people ate all the sharks or what. But they are replaced with turtles.

Bora Bora in Tahiti


I also recently dove in Mustique in the Caribbean, again many turtles. They were all over the place. I know they are listed as endangered, but maybe they counted wrong. At least I hope so because I love turtles.



The water is murky not because it is dirty. It is dark due to life which is living in the mud particles suspended in the water and churned up by tides.
Here where I go crabbing and collect mud for my tank you can see the bottom. At low tide, like here sometimes it stinks. That is not because of pollution, it is because the life that gets caught there at low tide dies. The water here rises and ebbs 8' every 12 hours. That moving water churns up the bottom and over millennium has converted the sand to mud.

The water in the tropics move a couple of inches at most. If you let northern water settle for an hour, it becomes crystal clear but you will still see the life swimming through it.

Here is my tank with 100% natural water. Virtually all the paired fish are spawning. Nothing was quarantined or medicated, not even the 30 year old fish.
The water is gin clear and I didn't add any gin.
If I shut the pumps and wait a minute, I will see all sorts of life swimming towards the surface including baby fish that hatch all the time. It is a mixed reed with many SPS, LPS, gorgonians etc. Everyone here who has a 50 year old tank with all water from a box, raise your hand.........Higher

This is all great. For you. This works for you. This is not realistic goal for most reefers. This is a hobby for me so I need to keep things as simple as possible.
I understand why you do it. The same way my Neighboor drivers a car from the 70 it’s
A talking point but it’s not realistic for me to also drive around in a 46 yr old car.

My tank goals are more in line with other successful reefers. I am not interested in keeping soft corals.

I can’t even imagine living in a home for more than 10yrs. So keeping the same tank for that long is not something that will make me happy. I love change and I love new.

This is what great about the hobby everyone path is different.
I am again making water as we speak and I just pressed a button on my apex from my phone.